Running to the Noise, Episode 25

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I am Carmen Twillie Ambar, president of Oberlin College and Conservatory. Welcome to Running to the Noise, where I speak with all sorts of folks who are tackling our toughest problems and working to spark positive change around the world. Because here at Oberlin, we don’t shy away from the challenging situations that threaten to divide us.

We run toward them.

Today, gaining a following is harder than ever. Platforms are saturated, and audiences are fragmented across countless feeds and formats. Even the most talented creators struggle to stay visible. Success increasingly depends not just on craft, but on an ability to earn and hold attention in an overcrowded digital landscape.

We wanted to talk to people who are actually navigating this space — folks who have found their own way through the noise. Meet three Oberlin alums, all multihyphenate creators, each with a very different path. They are Tamara Jade, a semifinalist on The Voice who toured with Doja Cat, performed with Lizzo, and can move effortlessly from taking our breath away singing opera at Lincoln Center to cracking us up on HBO’s A Black Lady Sketch Show.

EJ Marcus, a TikTok comic with more than half a million followers, a staff writer on HBO’s I Love LA, and who has made his acting debut as Nico, the nervous PA in season four of the Emmy-winning Hacks.

And finally, Seyquan Mack, a self-described artist doing everything, everywhere, all at once, who has fronted campaigns for Sephora, The Gap, and DC’s Become the Knight, a virtual reality Batman video game, while also finding time to teach voice at Berklee and Boston Arts Academy.

We brought them all together to talk about what actually moves the needle now in the contemporary creative space, how they’ve built momentum, made themselves indispensable, and are growing their success in competitive industries, and just as importantly, what comes next.

Seyquan, EJ, and Tamara, welcome to Running to the Noise. I’m so glad you all are here.

Tamara Jade: Thank you for having me. Yes, thank you for having us. So excited.

Carmen: I just thought, to help our audience kind of know exactly who you are, that maybe we could quickly have you tell us your year of graduation, your major, and then maybe what was one of the most pivotal creative endeavors that you engaged in while you were here at Oberlin. I think I’m going to start with EJ.

EJ Marcus: Okay, totally. I graduated in 2019. I majored in creative writing. And I’ll just say it, I’m going to give a disclaimer about my creative moment. The thing that comes to mind for me, and the story that I tell people a lot about, the reason I even ended up majoring in creative writing at Oberlin was my freshman year. I was in Intro to Poetry.

I came to Oberlin being like, I don’t want to take creative writing because it felt like — it felt like —

Carmen: Okay.

EJ: Because it felt like I knew in my heart that’s what I wanted to be doing, but I was like, no, you can’t make money that way. I really don’t want to do that.

But of course, anyway, I enrolled in Intro to Poetry, so obviously I did want to do that. I had Professor Lynn Powell, who I thank so much for everything, and she read us this poem, “The Writer” by Richard Wilbur. I still have it on my desktop laptop.

She read it to us in class, and it was basically this poem about a young writer who’s typing away and can’t stop doing it. And I burst into tears. I literally started crying and I had to leave the classroom because I was just so overwhelmed with this feeling of like it was this inevitable thing that I had to do. It’s so corny when I say it out loud, but it genuinely was this moment where I was like, I think this is why I am at this school, to study writing. Why am I avoiding it?

Carmen: So something you felt destined to do, something that was drawing you. Yeah, I love that. I love that story. Seyquan, you’re up next. Your major, your year of graduation, and the pivotal creative moment at Oberlin.

Seyquan Mack: Yes, so I graduated in 2021. I was double degree. I majored in opera, vocal performance, and politics. I think my most pivotal moment at Oberlin would probably be my third-year winter term. They did a production of Angels in America.

Carmen: Oh my gosh, I saw that production.

Seyquan: Do you remember that?

Carmen: I do.

Seyquan: So that, for me, was my first time doing a straight theater play since maybe my freshman year of high school. And I took a step back from opera in that moment and I really got to develop who I was as an actor. Besides me being someone that’s singing opera and being able to tell stories through music, it was only through my body language and through the text by Tony Kushner. So I think that opened up another door for me in terms of my artistry and what I wanted to do in my career.

Carmen: Do you remember in the process of doing that feeling that something was shifting in how you thought about your creative work, or is that a reflection now since you’ve graduated?

Seyquan: I would say both. I think in the moment I realized how pivotal it was because it was extremely uncomfortable. And now, reflecting on it, I realize that’s actually kind of what you want.

Carmen: I think one of the things students are looking for while they’re here at Oberlin is what moves and shapes them and helps them rethink how they’re imagining what’s before them or how they perceive what’s behind them. So I think it’s going to be great for them to listen to you all now that you have a moment of reflection, so they might recognize those moments more quickly while they’re here.

Ms. Tamara, who just so you all know, I know her lots of ways, but I follow her on Instagram, and if you don’t follow her on Instagram, you are missing out on some fun, fun times of watching her growth and career. But she’s the veteran in the room. So if you want to let us know your major, your year of graduation, and your pivotal creative moment while you were here at Oberlin.

Tamara: Yes, I am class of 2012. I was a double degree student in vocal performance and sociology. I attempted religion and African American studies minors and then did four out of the five requirements. And that last year I was like, why am I doing this to myself? Nobody cares about this after this except for me. Those aren’t degrees, but I did do a lot of coursework in those two departments as well.

And I have so many — just you asking the question, a bunch of different things came up. But if I could pick one, it would also be a winter term project. And it was still, to this day, one of the top five hardest musical endeavors I have ever taken on. God rest Miss Rosen — Marlene Rosen passed last year. Yes. But she chose me because she knew that I could do hard things, and she saw the skills that I came to Oberlin with, having a strong ear and all those things, and thought that I would be appropriate to sing a George Crumb song cycle with five percussionists and one vocalist.

Carmen: Oh, wow.

Tamara: So I had to find my pitches from thin air, from marimbas and xylophones, from percussion instruments that you don’t usually look for tones from. But we spent that entire winter term, every single day, hammering it out. It was a song cycle of spirituals, and so that’s why she knew it was appropriate for me as a church kid and everything. But it was also like, “Hey girl, this about to be real hard.” And it absolutely was, to this day, one of the hardest things that I’ve ever done.

And so November, I made my Lincoln Center debut. Yes, yes. And I was invited — I did not audition for that show — but I was able to be in that room in a two-week rehearsal period with an entire 300-page opera that is contemporary. Wow. And I still say this is not the hardest thing that I’ve ever done. Oh, I love it. And so I was not at all shaken in my boots. I knew exactly what to do. I knew how to find my way to the destination and also fully be myself.

I was actually asked, “Hey, can you do a gospel run right there?” I’m like, is someone going to drop from the sky? Is Mozart going to kill me for that? So, yeah. I would say that that is coming up right now because it’s such a full-circle moment for me, reentering opera and having not done it pretty much since I did Oberlin in Italy when I left, 15 years later. That’s awesome.

Carmen: Just so the audience knows, you’ll know these guys in lots of ways, but Tamara was on The Voice, which is how I first got connected to her. We’ll talk a little bit about that, and her work with John Legend and everybody, all the big people. And then EJ, of course, is a staff writer on I Love LA, a self-aware comedy for the chronically online. Saquon’s work is both modeling and vocal. And if you pull him up, you’ll see all sorts of wonderful pictures of his major campaigns and Sephora and other wonderful places.

And so this group is really multihyphenate. So I guess my first question: do you think that’s necessary in this space, that you’re figuring out how to do lots of different things? Has that been part of the key to the successes that you all have experienced?

Seyquan: Yeah, I mean, in terms of multihyphenate, I do believe in that. Having done so much training in opera for the five years that I was at Oberlin, it gave me a certain level of discipline that I feel like I can approach anything with. And so with that, once I graduated Oberlin, I lived in LA for two years.

Carmen: Okay.

Seyquan: And —

Carmen: Was that a specific choice, Seyquan, to head out to LA, or did that just happen?

Seyquan: I had two friends, two of my best friends that went to Berklee College of Music. They both moved to LA and they were like, “I’m moving to LA because this is where all the musicians are that perform.”

Carmen: Tamara, you don’t agree with that? Not the good ones?

Seyquan: Not the good ones. So literally, I moved to LA for two years and I was like, okay, well, there’s not that much classical music happening here. What should I do? So when I was in high school, me and my friends would always take photos. So I had friends that moved to LA two years before that, already in the modeling industry and doing a lot of TV and film. And so they were like, “Why don’t you just start modeling?”

And it dawned on me and I was like, should I? So then I made the decision to actually focus on it. And so for the first two years I was freelance. And so every day I would get up and I would just take photos. I would literally treat it as if I was training my voice. I would get up, I would practice taking photos. I would practice. I was looking at Pinterest boards. I was looking at other models that were booking big campaigns. I was looking at the successes of my friends and what kinds of clients they worked with. And I really narrowed down on understanding the clientele, understanding the industry, the different kinds of production companies, and I was just doing that constantly.

And then I landed my first big job as a freelance model doing a Puma campaign because I was just posting consistently photos of myself, me styling myself, me going outside and going to Echo Park to take photos and vibe out, super cool.

Through doing that, I was able to refine my craft and refine what I actually wanted to do. And so I started doing a lot of freelance work that way. And then I got into TV. So I did a couple of extra roles for HBO Max for Westworld.

Carmen: Oh yeah, of course.

Seyquan: That was, yeah, I think it was season four. I did that. So I did a lot of that. I worked with Alicia Keys on a few of her music videos, which is a great opportunity.

Carmen: Just in case y’all want to know —

Seyquan: Snoop Dogg and a few other ones.

Carmen: Okay.

Seyquan: And, yeah. So I just got to connect with them and literally ask them questions. How did you do it? Any advice on what I should do? And I would just take things that I felt would be helpful for my career and my craft and then just keep moving.

Carmen: I think what’s so great about that is hearing you talk about how you used the discipline of the conservatory opera work and just applied it to something new — modeling, posting, studying how people are having success — and then through that you found these other opportunities that I’m assuming you would say has been part of what sustained you.

As you know, we’ll talk about money here in a second because we shouldn’t avoid that. It seems to me that you all are taking good energy and good discipline from multiple places and applying them to new art forms. I really appreciate understanding that a little bit more.

So, EJ, for you, this multihyphenate framework and how that led you to the success you’ve had — is it about that, or the specifics of what you know?

EJ: Can I just say, it’s like there’s this running joke among comedians that I know that whenever you have a musician on the show with you, it’s like the most humbling experience ever. And it’s not even me being self-deprecating. It’s just like when people start to talk about music and being musicians, I’m like, okay, so that’s art. What I do is really cool, but it’s something completely different.

So anyway, just listening to you, Tamara, talk about that piece you did at Oberlin, I’m like, oh my God. Wow. Basically, wow.

Carmen: That’s what the hard, difficult artistic work looks like.

EJ: I’m out here just playing. Literally, I just get on stage with a microphone and say weird stuff. Anyway, no, just so much reverence for you both.

Also, the multihyphenate thing I think is so weird right now in Hollywood specifically because I’ve been out in LA for a little over four years at this point. And so I’m really relatively new to the game in so many ways, especially because I came out here on the tail end of COVID and then immediately the writer’s strike happened. And then it was like, oh gosh, I’m in this incredibly tumultuous time in the industry.

So I’m getting to know it in a place where standards and expectations are just really different than they used to be. It used to be that you could be a writer, show your work to a few people, and that was it. People could get to know your work through your writing, and that was it. You could follow a certain path in the industry and build your way up from writer’s assistant, whatever. There were so many more jobs.

And now it’s a crazy scarcity mindset where there just are not that many jobs. And now people are kind of expecting you to have this whole brand before you even step foot into a writer’s room, which is crazy, because we’re not even the ones on camera.

Group: Oh, that’s interesting. Why do you care?

EJ: But yes, I entered the industry at a time where the message I was getting was that it was really vital for me to be doing everything, which for me was fun. It is fun because I love live performance. Performing live comedy is one of my favorite things ever. I did my first stand-up show in a basement in Oberlin. I was like, oh, this rocks, I’m gonna do this forever. Literally a basement.

Carmen: What, what?

EJ: Literally a basement.

Carmen: Okay.

EJ: It was, I want to say, 1, 2, 3 South Professor Street. I think literally someone’s home in a basement.

Carmen: Okay. Yes. Well, let’s just get it out there for the record, so when we are all reading about you in The New York Times, we’ll be like, he started in a basement in a home on Professor Street.

EJ: Yes, that is true. You can quote me on that. It was also like, obviously, all of my jokes were about the one-mile square radius that is Oberlin. And so everyone was like, I get what you’re talking about. I killed because everyone knew exactly what I was talking about. But yeah, I love doing live comedy. I love performing, and I love writing. And so all of those things felt organic for me to be a part of my creative process.

But I think it’s a really tricky time for people who are figuring out what feels authentic to them to do. Because some people obviously just want to be writers. They don’t want to be performing live comedy. They don’t want to be acting. And so it’s this strange thing where I do think being a multihyphenate is critical right now. And also, in a way, it saddens me that it is.

Carmen: Interesting, because you think it’s a requirement now. You think it’s hard to break in without these multiple ways of thinking about yourself. I do. And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, Tamara, is just because I think that your career to this point has had these kind of blow-up, incredible everybody-knows-you moments. I mentioned already that you were on The Voice. I think it was season 19.

You were on there and you made it all the way to the semifinals. And then after that period of time, we’ve seen you blow up in A Black Lady Sketch Show and lots of opportunities to perform professionally. And you were already with Lizzo and other things.

So I’m wondering whether for you it has been exactly the right thing because you have all these different talents that you can show in this special way, or has it been, in some ways, taking you away from the thing that it feels like, when we follow you on Instagram, that you totally love, which is vocal performance at its core?

So maybe you can talk a little bit about that for the audience.

Tamara: So for me, there’s a few things. I am Caribbean American, so we don’t ever believe in doing just one job. You’re not going to trick me into doing just one job. Even at Oberlin, I remember the day that I met Miss Rosen. I told her, I don’t want to sing opera. And she looked at me like I had ten heads and said, well, why are you here? I said, because I want to learn how to sing. I know how to sing, but I want to learn how to make sure I’m not hoarse every time I leave church or whatever it is that I want to do.

And so I think in my mind, being multiple things was always the goal, but that’s because I grew up on Carol Burnett and Debbie Allen. It was like, yeah, it’s okay, you can dance, but can you act? Yeah, you can act, but can you sing? I knew eventually I was going to have to touch all of these things, and I wanted to. I wanted to act. I wanted to do all of these things.

And so for me, that was always the goal because it’s what I wanted, but it was antithetical to what I was being told by other Black predecessor professionals: go to grad school, do all these things.

But to be honest, once so many things started happening so quickly, I realized my friends made their Met debut at the same time that I was doing wedding band gigs and I was making more money than them.

Carmen: Interesting.

Tamara: They make 300 a night at the Met, y’all. I’m not a gatekeeper. They make 300. So let’s keep it real. This was the pinnacle of success. This is what we were being sold, that the Met is the highest of the high. But I could go sing “Habá” for a couple hours and pay my rent in two days, and you still haven’t moved the needle on your expenses.

Yes, you’re living your dream and yes, people know your name, but that doesn’t pay the bills. So I don’t think we can answer that question mutually exclusive from the economy that we’re in.

I agree, EJ. I came to LA on a comedy contract, a six-figure television contract. And then before a year could pass, writer’s strike, actor’s strike. I spent the whole second year here on unemployment, twiddling my thumbs, hoping for something to come along, hoping for things to change. And when it came back, I had to go back to music. I did not have a choice. I’m not sad about that.

I’m not sad that I could text John Legend and say, hey, I see that you’re doing a concert with the choir, can I be in the choir? And him say, oh my God, that’d be great. Send me your number. And I nepo my way into gigs sometimes, but that’s not nepotism. I do good networking. I build relationships.

Oberlin definitely taught me that. I still have the same core group of friends. We have a group chat. I’ve never been able to tell anybody this inside joke, but every time a celebrity dies, our way to alert each other is we say, Cicely Tyson night at the SCO. I don’t know if they still do that, but Michael Jackson died when I was in college. Whitney Houston died. Every time somebody died, it was a tribute show at the SCO.

But even just those things, knowing how to have an inside joke and run it into the ground with the same person for four years, I would say rather than focusing on the different talents right now, and I just talked to my financial planner, my therapist, and my business coach about this, what problems can you solve?

Carmen: Tell me when you say that, when you say what problem can you solve. Are you talking about creatively? Is it what problem to solve in the world?

Tamara: In the world. For instance, my friend the other day, we’re on the phone and he’s like, I’m about to go to Chipotle again. And I’m like, but don’t you have high blood pressure? Why are you going there? Cook something. And he’s like, but I’m tired. I don’t feel like it. And I said, well, if you want, you could pay me to meal prep for you. I solved a problem.

Why? Because I’m already in here cooking for myself because I’m broke. You have money. The money is not the thing for you, but you’re also not optimizing yourself to be your best, highest creative self. He’s accepted a professor job at a college an hour away. He’s still a working musician. The time isn’t there. I understand that. I’ve been there. I also put on 20 pounds from ordering food for a whole year and not cooking.

You may have gone to school for music, but if you know how to fix toilets, that doesn’t mean you are also a plumber. I don’t think those things are relevant anymore. I don’t think it’s relevant that I’m a vocalist, an actress, a comedian, a producer. None of those things matter. What can you do right now?
For me, I am providing joy to a very, very dark world on a regular basis. That’s a problem that I solve, which then often leads to income in the form of hosting or comedic work. I solve the problem.

I notice that a lot of creatives struggle with marketing, struggle with the brand. You spent all of your energy on the creativity, but how are you going to find the people to connect it to? So there does have to be some form of marketing. I can help you figure out how to do that in a way that doesn’t disrupt your life.

Carmen: You all have been talking about a couple of things that I think would be helpful. When I think about your careers and the unexpected things that happen in the world, we know that’s not going to change. So resilience, pivoting, how do you rethink in a challenging moment, and what does it mean to do that in the context of your brand and your image and marketing?

This is open to anyone, because the students who are graduating now and the students who will graduate in a couple of years, it feels like a very uncertain world, a challenging world that doesn’t seem like it has clear pathways. So maybe whoever wants to talk about the resilience that it takes to do what you all are doing and how you’re finding the ability to step into those moments when it’s really challenging.

Tamara: I would say something that is very important right now is even with the pivot, I am currently planning to move back to New York City.

Tamara: Fake ass. Oh, I’m sorry. Yeah, yeah — it’s, I need to go back. LA is not real enough for you. Is that what it is? No. And there is no local gig market. EJ is interesting — he’s on the other side of this. AI is a real thing, right? Like, yeah, I went from seeing one Waymo car here and there every week to seeing 20 per day on the road, right? So the economy is changing, and fortunately for people who do have talent, live entertainment has never died. And even what I did learn in the pandemic, which is our lifetime’s Great Depression, in my opinion, is that people need to be entertained. Alcohol sales skyrocketed. People went back on the drugs. People watched TV so much so that it changed how we consume entertainment. Now they’re creating content for secondhand viewership, meaning they’re creating content and dumbing the content down so bad because they expect people to be scrolling on their phones through social media while they’re consuming television shows.

So I think even within my pivot, going back to New York City, I’m doing that from community. I’m able to email past contacts at the wedding — hey, your girl is back. What’s up? I hate that this whole independence thing is like, move out from your parents. Y’all stay with your parents, stay with your family. I understand if it’s a toxic situation — I definitely dealt with that — but make no mistake about it, I have moved back home. I done lost count how many times. If your family loves you and you have a safe environment to regroup and pivot, tap into your community. If you need to crash with friends — “Houston, I’m coming down,” OB friend. “I need the room, brother. I need to stay at your house for a month.” I help with my niece.

I really think community, to me, is even more than resilience, even more than pivoting. Because pivoting is a part of everybody’s life. I don’t think that’s unique to the creative industry. I think resilience is necessary for life as well. You get beat up and you gotta get back up. That’s a part of life. But community right now I think is under attack. This hyper individualism that is being promoted, I think is actually antithetical to what we need to be doing to collaborate, to pay these bills, if we need to move in with each other. So I would say community for me would be even more important than resilience, than this kind of resilience.

Carmen: Seyquan, EJ, what would you all say to this kind of ability to pivot, resilience? What’s necessary there? Tamara’s making the case for community. What say you?

Seyquan: I would also agree and say community. I think a lot of the reasons why I made the decision to leave from LA to go to New York was because of community. One, because I was closer to home, because I’m from Boston, so it’s closer to home. But two, because I had a lot of friends that were already in the industry in New York City. To me, New York City is big, but it feels small, right? When you have a community of people that are doing the same kinds of things that you’re doing — and even not the same kinds of things that you’re doing — there’s a lot of mixing and blending that happens in New York City, which makes the experience so special.

I would also say resilience, right? Going back to Tamara’s point about going to Oberlin and actually admitting to Rosen, “Hey, I don’t actually want to do opera.” So for me, I made that decision later on in my career, towards the end of Oberlin — not that I don’t want to do opera, but I don’t want opera to be the only thing that I do.

Carmen: Talk a little bit about how you’ve tried to balance your brand enhancement, particularly the social media piece of it, with your professional endeavors. Have you thought about those things? Are they working in tandem with each other? Do you think about them differently? And anybody who wants to talk about this can.

But I also am wondering too, in this world of people looking on your social media platforms and going, “I disagree with that,” wait a minute — where are you all on that sort of pressure that I think is out there for you to maybe comment on political things, or you say stuff that people don’t like? What advice would you give to students about how they should approach this? I think it’s a necessary part of their career at this point.

Tamara: I have some anecdotal advice. When I did The Voice, I had to have a background check. And it was like 96 pages of me saying the N word across all social media platforms. And different political opinions. And I’m like, I said that — ugh. You know?

So I would say not even be careful — I don’t love the over-policing of opinions — but I also don’t think that every opinion is valuable. I think informed opinions are important, and maybe not every opinion needs to be public. Think about the fact that you will be a different version of yourself down the road. Will a future version of yourself be uncomfortable with whatever you’re going to say? Also, it’s okay.

One of my mentors told me some conversations are for the kitchen table, are for your personal people that you trust. Everything does not need to be for public consumption. Everybody has opinions, and sometimes opinions can be harmful, right? We know that violence can happen as a result of strong opinions from people with a lot of influence. It is important to be careful, but rather than thinking about it like being scared about what to post, think about the future versions of yourself. Would they be proud? Would they look back and be like, “Yeah, I always been that.” There’s stuff where I look back and I’m like, damn, I really was funny my whole life. But then there’s other things where I’m like, yeah, we can go ahead and delete this and hopefully nobody ever sees it because I don’t want to have to defend what I thought when I was 19.

Carmen: Yeah. Anybody else want to tackle that one?

EJ: Yeah. Well, I wanted to say something that’s a little bit going back to what we were talking about before, but I think it relates. In terms of focusing on one thing at Oberlin and then being able to be sort of a multihyphenate outside of it, something that I always reference when I’m talking about my creative path — when I was at Oberlin, the things that I was really focusing on in terms of creative writing was honestly writing really moody poetry stuff that I think was vital for me to get out of my system when I was 18 and 19 years old.

But like you’re saying, Tamara, I think it was stuff that I’m so glad was kept very private. There was nobody witnessing that. It was so contained. And that was something that also was talked about in a lot of my classes at Oberlin, in creative writing and theater. There’s a reason why some of these spaces are just for only us to experience right now in this moment and not to be taped and publicized elsewhere. So in pivoting and being able to be true to this sort of core center, it’s really critical to have those spaces that aren’t for public consumption.

Carmen: I’ve been hearing from people that sometimes getting gigs and opportunities, people are already looking at your platforms and determining whether you have enough of a following or a reach, and that they’re putting that in the calculus of whether you are the right person for this role or not, or this position or whatever it is. Talent is important, but it’s just another factor — whether you have a reach — which puts a different level of pressure on your ability to build your brand and post and all those things.

And I’m wondering whether — am I right? Is that what people are saying to you as you think about these opportunities? Are they actually literally looking at your reach and your platforms and saying, “Yeah, Tamara, she was on The Voice,” and like, “Yeah, we want her to have that job.” Or “No, Seyquan, he didn’t post enough for us to say he’s really the one.” Is that how we should be thinking about one of the switches in this industry?

Seyquan: I think it’s definitely an important thing to be thinking about. I wouldn’t say to entirely consume yourself with that, because then I think your intention kind of changes.

When I was first starting out modeling, it wasn’t that big of a shift, but now that I’ve been doing it for five years, within the past three years it’s become a really important thing that a lot of clients will look at. I’ll have some of my agents like, “Oh, you should probably post more. You should look into doing influencing and stuff like that.” And for me, that’s a completely different job. It’s a completely different set of skills.

So I’ve had to figure out a way strategically, and also intentionally, to combine both of those things — to be able to put myself out there for social media, for reach, but also for the clients that want to book me.

And what has helped with that is obviously having agencies in many different states. So me being signed in Chicago, me being signed in Boston, Massachusetts, and then me having representation in New York, of course. And so with that, I’ve been able to build a bigger clientele and a bigger community so that booking me, they’re not like, “Oh, what’s his numbers like?” It’s more like, “Oh, this is an addition to the skills that he already has,” because I’ve built the portfolio and I’ve done the work and I’ve connected with the clients. So it’s hard. There’s so much talent out there. There are people on Instagram that have 200 followers that can give something to the world that is transformative, but clients and these bigger companies are looking for numbers because they know that the numbers are going to push their brand. It’s hard. So you have to find that sweet spot.

Carmen: Well, and it also seems like you’re cautioning that it matters, but let’s do it in a way that’s authentic. Exactly. And not do it in a way that’s forced. Exactly. But just recognize that it is something that people consider.

And I think one of the scary things about the creative space is that it’s a self-creation. You are really the designer and creator of it. And it’s hard to know what to do. What’s the day-to-day look like if you are trying to help somebody know, well, what do I do? Give them a sense of how you’re spending your day and what it looks like to be in this space in a way that you view at the end of the day as productive and successful and moving the needle forward, even if it didn’t result in a gig, so to speak.

Tamara: I would love to answer that, but I would also like to make sure — and this is for the students that are listening — please always qualify and contextualize things, because I’m answering this question as a 36-year-old. You’re not going to be 36 next year or any year after that for a long time. So your goal shouldn’t be for your life to look like mine. But I can tell you what it looked like at that age and how it got me to here, and also what it looks like at this age.

At this age, it looks like having this whiteboard here that’s color-coded.

Carmen: For people who can’t see it, who are just listening to us, Tamara turned to a board where it looks like it’s color-coded and it looks like a list of various things that need to be done, could be done, might already be done.

Tamara: Yeah. Just from knowing myself for 36 years, it helps me to cross things off and check things off to feel that progress. Because 20-something-year-old me felt like, child, I don’t know what I’m doing, but I’m doing something every day.

When I first moved to New York and I didn’t have regular work, the work was content. The work was, how can you market yourself? How can you get out there? A lot of my social media progress happened because it was reactionary. I didn’t have the live spaces, so nobody could police what I was putting online. I used that to put myself out there. And it started with putting up music cover videos and different things like that.

Then it morphed into people seeing my process, seeing me schlepping around on three buses and three trains to get to the wedding band gig, recording me on the wedding band gig, being a fool, shouting to “Hava Nagila,” and then doing it all in reverse and getting home at 3:00 a.m. and still going to church the next morning to do that. And so a lot of that time was about process.

Then I didn’t have to work as much because, to your point earlier, these big things happen. And when big viral moments happen, whether they’re television or social media, there’s an upswing in your following. So these days I’m working toward stabilization, routine, and structure, which are curse words to the creative. However, those things actually preserve your creative energy.

So the fact that this whiteboard isn’t for me to get all these things done every day — it’s to make progress. These are the events I have coming up this month. These are people’s birthdays so I don’t forget to text my mama. Life things, like make doctor’s appointments. I just now have health insurance for the first time in three years. That’s a lot of things we don’t talk about as creatives, but a lot of us are walking around uninsured, hoping our youth and vibes are going to keep us healthy.

If an emergency situation happens — God forbid appendicitis — stuff can happen. So working on those things today looked like this morning I went for a morning walk.

Carmen: Just so the audience knows, all of our alums are nodding here. And y’all know I believe in a fitness regimen.

Tamara: We’ve seen you with the tires. We see you break the internet with the — but I woke up and had my morning walk, then came in and had my first call, which was my annual finance meeting. With a professional, but a professional from my community, who was my sister-in-law. You owe me for the rest of your life. I gave you my brother. Help me.

So having our annual finance meeting to talk about taxes, my transition back to New York, and wealth management. I don’t have a Roth IRA yet. It’s time. And even though the money isn’t always there — sometimes there’s $50, sometimes there’s $100, sometimes there’s $1,000 — it’s time to start working that now.

Then a call to check in with my talent manager, who’s New York-based, to talk about this year and the transition. And then hopefully I’m going to be drinking after that because it’s Friday. That’s kind of what a day in my life looks like now.

But when I was younger, in my twenties, it was all about visibility. It was all about people seeing my talent, seeing what I could do to book me, to put me on opportunities, which then built the following. I didn’t want to forsake that following question. I do believe that people use it as a measuring tool. I’ve had record labels tell me that.

But I also want to say that on the other side of that double-edged sword, it can be leveraged for you.

Seyquan: Absolutely.

Tamara: I absolutely leverage my following all the time, especially for new opportunities where before they might not have let me in the door because they didn’t know me. But hey, I’ve got a hundred thousand people across all these platforms who are going with me wherever I want. So it can be a tool for leverage if you make it part of your goals. Don’t do it because you’re afraid something won’t happen if you don’t. Do it because of what you could make happen if you do.

Group: That was good. That was — girl, that’s the word right there.

Carmen: Wait, Tamara, before we get to EJ and Seyquan about the day in the life, we’ve seen you have your own records come out. Do you think you were able to do that because of the platform and the ability to promote your records through that platform? How did that part of your work happen?

Tamara: No. The thing that for me will never change is make good music first.

Carmen: Amen.

Tamara: If you make good music, it can find its homes. But there are things you can do to help it find its homes. For me, getting solid on the type of music I wanted to make and the sound I wanted to put out into the world is more important than anything else. Because you could be putting out a song a day, and if it’s trash, nobody’s going to listen to it.

When I got to The Voice, the first thing Kelly Clarkson said was, “Who are you and where have you been?” If you go back to my stuff, you’ll find a treasure trove of things. But waiting until you get the following and notoriety to do it — you’re late. You’re late.

Carmen: Interesting. Yeah. EJ, for you, day in the life —

EJ: I so agree with everything you just said in terms of the following thing. Definitely not going to pretend it doesn’t help with jobs. And definitely people want to know you’re bringing your own audience along with you. But I also know plenty of people — this is the LA darkness or whatever — who quite literally have millions of followers, but they don’t have anything to say, or they don’t know exactly what they’re doing, or they don’t know why they’re going viral, just to go viral. Ugh, sorry. But I think it’s really important to have that basis.

People say, “Use your social media as your résumé,” and I think that is true. Résumé makes it sound almost too official, but it’s more like what you’re saying, Tamara — use it to show your voice and examples of who you are. Like, okay, if you hire me for a job, this is who you’re going to have in the room with you. This is the kind of thing I’ll bring.

And I’m not skirting the “what do you do in a day” question, but one of the best pieces of advice I got while I was at Oberlin was that especially when you’ve been a college student in what can sometimes be a bubble, it’s vital if you want to be creating things to go out and just live life. Just live a life where you’re interacting with people. There are so many times where I’m referencing all of the customer service jobs I had in my work, in my comedy. What are we making art about if it’s not interactions with people and walking down the street and the things that you see? That’s what people are curious about and what’s going to resonate.

Those things then, when you’re ready, help you build your voice. That’s what people are attracted to and that’s why you’d even get followers in the first place. That’s my opinion. So I think it’s that authenticity too.

But in terms of what I do in a day, it really depends on if I have a job or not. Today, I get brand deals once in a while, which help me pay the bills — I’m not going to pretend I don’t do that. So I’m working on one of those today. And then I’m performing a standup show tonight. And I also have a podcast that I just sold a pilot of, so I have to draft the first episode of that.

And to speak to what you’re saying about it coming from within and being self-motivated, I have a movie that I’ve been writing and a TV show that I’ve been writing that no one is paying me to do. I wake up and I say, today I’m going to work, and no one is paying me to do it, but I sit down and I do it. I love it because I love writing, but also it’s so hard.

Carmen: So EJ, lots of people know you for I Love LA. How did you get that gig?

EJ: I was on a walk in my neighborhood because I had just gotten rejected from a different writing job and was taking a walk to collect myself and be sad for a second. I didn’t want to run into anyone. I was feeling extremely down on myself, having a private moment.

And then of course I ran into Rachel Sennott, who created and stars in and ran the room for I Love LA. It was a couple days after the show had been announced as greenlit. I knew my reps had submitted my stuff for it, but I was feeling like I would never get a job in my whole life.

We ran into each other. She’s so nice. I knew Rachel through mutual friends — crossed paths at a birthday party or comedy show. I was trying to be chill and said congrats on the show. I walked away thinking I botched that and was so weird.

A couple days later, I got a call that they wanted to meet with me about the show. We had a wonderful meeting. She and the showrunner Emma are amazing. And she said it was so crazy — she ran into me and two seconds later she was reading my script.

I think it really is one of those things: the universe looking out for me. But also that’s why you gotta get outside.

Carmen: You never know.

EJ: Get outside so the universe can have something to play with. You truly never know.

Carmen: I would describe it as that faith walk that you’re on — the belief that you invest in yourself and your work and the universe will work it out for you and reward that commitment. Before we get to our final question, Seyquan, what does a day in the life look like for you?

Seyquan: I would piggyback off that and say everything I do, I walk with faith, because it’s hard. But faith makes it more manageable. My schedule is always a mess.

I usually schedule out my month depending on what clients I’m working for. If I’m not doing a fitting or shooting for a campaign, I’m doing a lot of self-tapes — one or two a day. I try to be a month ahead if possible. I make sure I’m working out. Twice a month I go to Boston because I teach at Berklee as a teaching artist. I teach high school students. That fuels me because I learn as I teach and give back in intentional ways.

I travel a lot through modeling and singing. Last year I got back into opera. When I don’t have anything to do, I try to rest because it’s extremely important. I had to give myself grace because I didn’t want to rest. I felt pressure because I generate my own income. I had to create boundaries and say it’s okay not to work on weekends, or even Mondays. You’re working Thursday, Wednesday — it’s okay.

Carmen: That’s the benefit of not having a nine-to-five. You can choose days when everyone else is at work.

Seyquan: Exactly. My Mondays are like Fridays.

Carmen: You’ve hit so many important topics — balance, pivoting, authenticity, community. Each of you has had breakout moments that are known not just to you but to the world, which makes you great examples for students. You’re at different stages of your careers and show what’s possible.

I ask every guest this: what do you do to run to the noise in your work or your life?

Seyquan: Growing up Caribbean and first gen, my parents are from Jamaica, there was this fear I had of being too much.

Carmen: Interesting.

Seyquan: A fear that I had of not being enough, and kind of those two pairings. So for me, running to the noise is counteracting that, contradicting that thought that I had growing up because it’s rewarding. Actually, running to the noise for me is uncomfortable, but that uncomfortability is actually what you want. Running to the noise for me is being fearless, which a lot of people don’t teach you about. It’s not a thing that people talk about because I think we’re in a phase of life, as a society, where there’s so much fear in the world.

Carmen: Yeah.

Seyquan: That they kind of want you to stay in your own box, in your own lane. My whole point, as an artist and as a freelance artist, and as someone that is not meant to work a nine-to-five in the corporate world, I’m supposed to be fearless. I’m supposed to be here for the next generations, the next Oberlin students, to be like, it’s okay. You can do this without fear, right? Because there’s safety within that. And so that’s my definition of running to the noise.

Carmen: I love it. Boldly running without fear. If we all could adopt that. Boy, what would the world be?

EJ: I know.

Carmen: EJ, running to the noise in your work or life.

EJ: So I’m trans, but by the time I started actually getting jobs in this industry, I fully pass as a man, which obviously I could talk about for a long time. But needless to say, Hollywood is an extremely homophobic, transphobic, racist industry. That’s not new. Every industry is, to an extent, but Hollywood in particular has its own version of that.

Along with what we’re talking about—building yourself as a brand or having to be a multihyphenate—it’s really important to me because now that I have access to spaces I wouldn’t have had otherwise, and I say that as someone who’s existed in a different body and experienced misogyny and now experiences male privilege, it’s the trippiest thing that’s ever happened.

Knowing that and having those experiences in my mind, and being allowed to be in spaces where suddenly I’m listened to in a different way, it’s critical to me that I’m not always leading with that. I’m not a “trans writer” or a “trans comedian.” That’s not the first thing people need to know about me. But it is critical to me that when I’m in those spaces and having conversations, it will be known in one way or another. I’m not going to come out to every single person I talk to, but it’s my mission because this is a really tricky time to be trans in this country.

And I think it’s also really fun to have people realize I can laugh about it and joke about it and that I’m a comedian first.

Group: Yeah.

EJ: But also, you should be careful about what you say around me.

Tamara: Like, it’s like, okay.

EJ: It’s a privilege that I get to be in the rooms I’m in. And I’m going to make it so those rooms are different because I’m there.

Carmen: Love it. And Tamara, running to the noise in your work or your life—what does that look like for you?

Tamara: That looks like disruption. I am a disruptor. I came to shake the tables. Why is this right here? Move it. Why are they talking like that? Why are we allowing this? How much are you getting paid? Well, how much are you getting paid? Y’all not getting paid the same thing—what you gonna do about it?

For me, I am the noise. I’ve always been loud. I had friends have an intervention with me once and tell me I was too loud and unpredictable and wild, and I’m like, that’s crazy, because Doja Cat really needed that from me last year.

So for me it means disrupting. It means coming to LA and, yes, I’m here on a television contract, but where do y’all go to just hang? Do y’all like each other? Where do people go to love on each other? Where do people go to break bread? Oh, you don’t have it? Then I’m going to create it. I’m going to challenge the status quo because it could be better. This world could always be better.

And especially Oberlin students—when I was there the slogan was “Think one person can change the world.” No, we still have that? Oh, okay. One person can change the world, so do we.

But I believe that until the air is out of my body. God rest Rosen’s soul—I know I keep talking about her—but she showed me the kind of life I want to live. When all the air is out of my lungs, the stories are countless, the generosity, the love, the joy—people will never run out of things to say about that. But they’ll also say she didn’t play though.

Seyquan: And she wasn’t even my teacher.

Tamara: Exactly. I love that woman. That’s the kind of life I want to live. I want people to sit up straight when I come in the room. If you’re being slimy and underhanded, I want you to be afraid of me. If you like to take advantage of people, I want you to feel uncomfortable around me.

That’s what running to the noise is. Run to New York. Run to London. Run to LA. Go in there and shake some tables while you’re there. It needs to happen, and I think uniquely that’s something Oberlin students can do. So disrupt.

Carmen: I love it. I just want to say to our audience that these young alums are out there doing exciting things and having their own successes, but also bringing heart, care, and love for community and for good work in the world. We appreciate what you do and how you hold it down as examples for our students who will soon be doing exactly what you’re doing.

Thanks for listening to Running to the Noise, a podcast produced by Oberlin College and Conservatory. Our music is composed by Professor of Jazz Guitar Bobby Razza and performed by the Oberlin Sonny Rollins Jazz Ensemble, a student group created through the support of the legendary jazz musician. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to hit that subscribe button, leave us a review, and share this episode online so Oberlin students and others can find it too. I’m Carmen Twillie Ambar, and I’ll be back soon with more great conversations from thought leaders on and off our campus.