Running to the Noise, Episode 14

[00:00:00] Limmie Pulliam (Singing): He is my God, and I will praise him. My father's God, and I will exalt him. Ah, you locusts and the people!

[00:00:45] Carmen: That's Limmie Pulliam making his Carnegie Hall debut, singing the title role in The Ordering of Moses. Limmie Pulliam grew up singing gospel music in a small-town Missouri church where his father was a pastor. But in school, he was more of a jock than a crooner. Nobody realized the big football player had an even bigger range until his eighth-grade choir director heard him doing an impersonation of Stevie Wonder.

He trained with the legendary Richard Miller at the Oberlin Conservatory of Music in the late 1990s, and expectations for Pulliam were high. But the rising young tenor, with such promise, quit singing in his early 20s, disheartened by an industry that he says denied him prime roles because of his weight.

For nearly a decade, he paid his rent as a debt collector and security guard and rarely sang at all—not even in the car along with the radio. But in 2007, while working as a field organizer in Missouri for Barack Obama's first presidential campaign, a singer for hire didn't show up to perform the national anthem.

Pulliam stepped in, and everything changed. I first met Limmie in January 2023 when I attended his debut at Carnegie Hall with the Oberlin Orchestra. And he's been busy making up for lost time ever since—at the Met, at the Cleveland Orchestra, and in December, he'll return to campus to step into the title role in Omar, the Pulitzer Prize-winning opera by Oberlin alumna Rhiannon Giddens and Michael Abels.

The story of how Limmie rebuilt his career and voice against all odds moved me. And it strikes me as the very essence of Michelle Obama's admonishment to Oberlin graduates to "run to the noise," to do the thing that's hard, even when that voice in your head is telling you you can't possibly succeed. I wanted to know how he overcame those doubts to reclaim a career on center stage—a place he so clearly belongs.

[00:03:00] Carmen: I'm Carmen Twillie Ambar, President of Oberlin College and Conservatory. Welcome to Running to the Noise, where I speak with all sorts of folks who are tackling our toughest problems and working to spark positive change around the world. Because here at Oberlin, we don't shy away from the challenging situations that threaten to divide us. We run towards them. So, Limmie, I'm so excited to see you. Last time I saw you, you were making your Carnegie Hall debut.

[00:03:00] Limmie: Yes.

[00:03:02] Carmen: Yeah, that was awesome.

[00:03:04] Limmie: That was a lot of fun.

[00:03:06] Carmen: That was a lot of fun. So, just so the audience knows, it was in the title role in The Ordering of Moses, the 1932 oratorio by celebrated composer R. Nathaniel Dett, who in 1908 became the first Black double major graduate of Oberlin Conservatory.

Mm-hmm. And you were on stage killing it, as they say. So let's just start there. Tell the audience what that's like to be in that space.

[00:04:00] Limmie: It's really hard to describe. I've had the opportunity on a couple of occasions to perform in that space, and both of them have been because of Oberlin. My first time there was as an undergrad in a chorus for the Mahler Eighth Symphony, under the direction of the late, great Robert Shaw.

As an aspiring young singer, it was just motivating to be in that space and to see the excellence that was represented on the stage and the soloists and the orchestras and the conductor. It really gave me something to aspire to.

So when the opportunity arose for me to once again return to this space with Oberlin—the Oberlin Orchestra and Oberlin choruses—and such a prolific piece as The Ordering of Moses, it was one I couldn't really pass up.

There aren't too many hallowed spaces in the classical music world here in the United States bigger than Carnegie Hall. And to achieve making a debut there was something extremely special for me because most people wouldn't think that at the age of 47, you would be making a major debut at a place like Carnegie Hall.

[00:05:00] Carmen: That's right.

[00:05:01] Limmie: I hope it inspired others to just really know not to ever give up on their dreams.

[00:05:04] Carmen: That’s right. And as long as you have breath in your body, it’s never too late to achieve your dreams.

[00:05:12] Carmen: We will certainly get into sort of how you got there. But I have to say, as I think back on that performance, you know, there’s not very many times that I say a performance had perfection. But I remember that audience.

And for those of you who don’t know, we were performing before the General Assembly of the United Nations. And that audience exploded into applause. And I mean, the kind of raucous explosion that an audience gives a work that has moved them and has changed them. That’s what I remember about that night. And I just—it was—it was a really...

[00:06:00] Limmie: It was a really special night. Plus, I had my entire family there—all of my siblings, my mother, and several other relatives were able to come in and be there for that occasion. And so it was extremely special all around.

[00:06:15] Carmen: Since you talked about your family, maybe let’s start from the beginning a little bit about, you know, what was your earliest musical performance? I know you sang gospel music. What’s your earliest memory of singing?

[00:06:28] Limmie: My earliest memories are singing in what we call the Sunshine Band growing up in the Church of God in Christ. Most people would call it a youth choir.

[00:06:36] Carmen: Yep.

[00:06:37] Limmie: Oh yeah. That was my earliest experience—Sunshine Band, standing up on Sunday mornings, Sunday afternoons, in our yellow and white.

[00:06:44] Carmen: I’ve been in many, I’ve been in many! Listen, the youth choir—I grew up in the Deep South.

[00:06:50] Limmie: Yes.

[00:06:51] Carmen: Youth choir with the person doing that little “do a repeat,” circling their hands like they’re doing a sign from a football game.

[00:06:57] Limmie: Yeah.

[00:06:58] Carmen: “Repeat that verse again, little kids!”

[00:07:00] Limmie: Yeah, that was my earliest music training. And little did I know, that would become some of the best training I would ever receive.

It taught me how to connect with an audience and the importance of connecting with the audience, how much music and text and things can move people and can touch people.

It was a great lesson for me to learn at such an early age. And it’s something I carry with me today in how I approach a piece of music.

[00:07:26] Carmen: Yes.

[00:07:27] Limmie: Classical music is old. So, a lot of the pieces that we do, people have heard time and time again. And you always want to have some type of fresh approach to it.

[00:07:36] Carmen: Right.

[00:07:37] Limmie: That’s what I’m searching for each and every time I stand on a stage: to bring a fresh approach to something that people might have heard 50 times in their lifetime.

[00:07:45] Carmen: For those of you who grew up in the church, those hymns have been sung lots of times. Those songs—everyone’s heard them. The audience can sing it with you.

[00:07:53] Limmie: Yes. And every time, you may hear a different ad-lib.

[00:07:57] Carmen: That’s true.

[00:07:58] Limmie: On a hymn that you’ve heard many Sundays.

[00:08:00] Carmen: That’s right.

[00:08:01] Limmie: And someone will come in and do something different, and you’ll be like, “Oh, okay, that was new!”

[00:08:05] Carmen: That’s right.

[00:08:06] Limmie: And you know, it’s just that little spark that you need. It inspires other people to, as you say, step out and then add their own little ad-libs and things to the music.

[00:08:15] Carmen: That makes me feel so warm because I know that feeling of that audience. What I love about a Black church audience is that that audience is for you.

[00:08:23] Limmie: Yes.

[00:08:24] Carmen: And you know that when you walk in the pulpit or on the choir stand or wherever you are, they’re going to give you that love back.

[00:08:30] Limmie: Yes. There are few things more comforting than for a young person who’s standing on a stage or in a choir stand to hear that: “Take your time.”

[00:08:38] Carmen: That’s right.

[00:08:39] Limmie: “Take your time, honey. Take your time, sweetie.” And then you’re like, “Okay.”

[00:08:43] Carmen: That’s right. We used to have a woman in our church, and she would say, “Well, well, well!” And you would know you were doing it. If she said, “Well, well, well,” you know you really hit it. I love that. So, let’s talk a little. You’re singing in the church, and you’re realizing that you can sing. I guess you had some moments where people really gave you that sense that you do this well. How did you find your way to Oberlin?

[00:09:08] Limmie: It was high school choir. I didn’t really realize how well I could sing until middle school. My uncle, who was a rather known gospel singer in our area, used to call me Gomer Pyle because I had this deep singing voice, southern accent, and he would always say that you would never think that you could sing just by listening to you talk. It became sort of a joke between us. But it all started in middle school. I joined the choir because my friends were in choir—not because I really had any interest in music, but because that’s where my friends were.

[00:09:43] Carmen: And?

[00:09:44] Limmie: So, I started in choir. I was hiding in the back of the bass section, pretending to be a bass, until one day I was outed by my classmates. They just said, “Wait a minute.” They told Miss Sexton—Veretta Sexton, who was my choir director—“You should hear Limmie do a Stevie Wonder impersonation.”

[00:10:01] Carmen: Oh, wow. Okay, which song did you do?

[00:10:04] Limmie: “Isn’t She Lovely?”

[00:10:06] Carmen: “Isn’t She Lovely,” okay.

[00:10:08] Limmie: I was kind of a class clown, so I loved to do impersonations. I did really odd impersonations, like Cary Grant and Bette Davis—things you wouldn’t expect a young Black kid to be doing impersonations of.

[00:10:20] Carmen: Yes, no, and not at that age.

[00:10:23] Limmie: Not at that age, no. So, one day she said, “Okay, if we can get our work done, I’ll let Limmie do his impersonation.” She wasn’t really expecting much from it. And when I did it, she immediately stopped me. She said, “Wait, hold up. Do that again.” And I did it again, and she said, “All right, we need to talk. You’re not a bass.” She immediately moved me to the tenor section. From then on, I was in the tenor section.

[00:10:52] Limmie: Then we went on through high school in choir, and we did solo and ensemble competitions, which they have in Missouri. You do it at the district and state level.

[00:11:01] Carmen: Yes. For those choir folks out there, you know that sequence where you’re going to these competitions and doing district and regionals.

[00:11:07] Limmie: So, I did a solo on the district level and was advanced to state. It was at state, when I sang for a blind judge, that things really changed. It was blind judging—we sang our two pieces, walked out of the room, and once we walked out, the door opened behind us. The person I assumed was the judge was standing there and said, “Whoever was just here singing, please come back to this room at the end of the day.”

[00:11:35] Carmen: Oh, wow. Okay, which song did you do?

[00:11:39] Limmie: "Isn’t She Lovely?"

[00:11:42] Carmen: "Isn’t She Lovely," okay.

[00:11:44] Limmie: I was kind of a class clown, so I loved to do impersonations. I did really odd impersonations, like Cary Grant and Bette Davis.

[00:11:52] Carmen: Oh, wow.

[00:11:54] Limmie: Things you wouldn’t expect a young Black kid to be doing impersonations of.

[00:11:59] Carmen: Yes, no, and not at that age.

[00:12:02] Limmie: No, not at that age. So one day, she said, "Okay, if we can get our work done, I’ll let Limmie do his impersonation." She wasn’t really expecting much from it. And when I did it, she immediately stopped me. She was like, "Wait, hold up. Do that again." And I did it again.

[00:12:19] Carmen: Wow.

[00:12:20] Limmie: And she said, "All right, we need to talk. You’re not a bass." And she immediately moved me to the tenor section. From then on, I was in the tenor section.

[00:12:29] Carmen: Okay.

[00:12:30] Limmie: Then we went on through high school and choir. We did solo and ensemble, which they have in Missouri. You do it at the district and the state level.

[00:12:39] Carmen: Yes. For those choir folks out there, you know that sequence where you’re going to these competitions and doing district and regionals and, yeah.

[00:12:46] Limmie: So I did a solo on the district level and was advanced to state. It was at state when I sang for a blind judge. It was blind judging—we sang our two pieces, walked out of the room, and then the door opened behind us. The person I assumed was a judge was standing there and said, "Whoever was just here singing, please come back to this room at the end of the day."

[00:13:11] Carmen: Wow.

[00:13:13] Limmie: So my teacher and I went back, and she talked to me. She was a voice teacher from St. Louis. She said, "You really have a gift. I’m not sure if you know that, but you have a gift that needs to be nurtured, and I think it could be something really special."

[00:13:26] Carmen: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:28] Limmie: She asked, "What are your plans?" I said, "You know, I’m probably going to go to a state school." I had a couple of scholarship offers at state schools where most of my siblings had gone.

[00:13:37] Carmen: Right.

[00:13:39] Limmie: She said, "Have you heard of a school called Oberlin?"

[00:13:42] Carmen: Oh my gosh.

[00:13:44] Limmie: I said, "No." She asked, "Have you heard of a teacher called Richard Miller?" I said, "No, ma’am, I haven’t."

[00:13:50] Carmen: Wow.

[00:13:52] Limmie: So she talked to my teacher, got the address of our school, and within a week, I had a copy of one of Richard Miller’s books, The Structure of Singing, and an informational packet from Oberlin sent to my school for me.

[00:14:05] Limmie: I took that home and began reading it. This was the mid-90s, so I popped in this videotape. I remember it said, "Let me tell you about a town called Oberlin."

[00:14:16] Carmen: Oh my gosh.

[00:14:18] Limmie: It went on to talk about the school and did a school tour via video. They talked about the conservatory, the voice department, the jazz department. By the time it was done, I thought, "This is the place for me. Oh my God. This is where I have to go."

[00:14:32] Carmen: You know what, Limmie? I’ve had a chance a couple of times on this podcast to have what I call these kind of God moments—the universe moments. Something happens, and you just see, "Oh." That leads to a Metropolitan Opera debut, Carnegie Hall, and you think, "This person at this competition says, 'Whoever was singing, come back and talk to me.'"

[00:14:51] Limmie: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Carmen: And Oberlin—and the world—gets to hear your incredible voice because somebody just stopped and went, "Yeah, you know what? I can’t let that voice go unattended to."

[00:15:03] Limmie: Yeah, that was definitely a God moment. I’m so grateful for it because it put me on the path to where I am today.

[00:15:10] Carmen: Wow.

[00:15:12] Carmen: Well, let’s talk a little. You mentioned Richard Miller, and I think for those of you who don’t know Richard, let Limmie tell us a little bit about his contributions to the industry and why he was so important. But I know that he trained you at Oberlin. Maybe just tell us what the audience should know about him and how he reacted to your voice.

[00:15:32] Limmie: Mr. Miller was an extremely special person to me. He was not just a voice teacher; he was not just a well-respected—probably the most respected—vocal pedagogue in the world at the time.

[00:15:42] Carmen: Yes.

[00:15:43] Limmie: He became sort of like a father figure to me. Being away from home...

[00:15:47] Carmen: Right, in a small town.

[00:15:49] Limmie: In a small town, he and his wife became kind of like surrogate parents to most of us within the studio. He began training us, and I’ll never forget my first semester. He told me early on—he spoke so properly—he said, "Limmie, I don’t know if you know this, but very few people come into Oberlin with the level of talent you have."

[00:16:10] Carmen: Mmm.

[00:16:12] Limmie: He said, "When you get home for Thanksgiving break, the first thing you should do is go back to your school and thank your teacher for the training she gave you and for actually nurturing your voice and not doing it harm." That left an indelible mark on me when he told me that.

[00:16:31] Carmen: Wow.

[00:16:33] Limmie: So when I got home, I explained this to my teacher. I said, "Mr. Miller wanted me to come and tell you thank you." Because she taught me so much without me actually knowing I was being taught. I’m so thankful for the people—Veretta, Richard—that God put into my life.

[00:16:51] Carmen: Right.

[00:16:52] Limmie: All these people poured into my life in a way that ends up with this incredible result.

[00:16:59] Carmen: And I couldn’t have been there at a better time. We had a great studio—one of the most supportive groups of students I’ve ever met. I used to love our studio classes. If you weren’t inspired when you got there, you left inspired because of the level of talent.

[00:17:14] Limmie: Right.

[00:17:15] Carmen: We’d all come from places where we were kind of the big fish in the pond. So it was really nice to finally be surrounded by other people who had that same level of talent and similar capabilities and possibilities for their talent that you had.

[00:17:29] Carmen: Limmie is saying that, but at the front of this conversation, we talked about Richard Miller saying to you that you had this kind of extraordinary talent. And I thought I would just make sure the audience knows what people said about you. A friend and classmate described you as an opera god—was the phrase that they used. They ended up saying that as good as the best of us were, he was 600 times better. He was in another universe.

[00:17:57] Limmie: Wow.

[00:17:58] Carmen: So I just want the audience to digest that a little bit because, um, I may be biased, but I think I’m right—Oberlin College and Conservatory is the best. And so when someone says that the talent that shows up here—that one of the vocalists was 600 times better than everyone else—that is saying something about your talent. So you leave Oberlin, and you head out and do what in those first couple of years?

[00:18:22] Limmie: Those first couple of years, I started out doing what we call kind of young artist or educational programs. I did young artist programs with Opera Delaware and Opera Memphis. So I spent time with those opera companies training as a young singer, traveling around the cities, going to different schools, presenting programs to schools.

[00:18:41] Carmen: Yes.

[00:18:42] Limmie: I made my professional debut with Opera Memphis in a small supporting role in Tosca, which was probably the best experience I could have asked for.

[00:18:52] Carmen: Wow.

[00:18:54] Limmie: It was just like—as we used to say back then—I was geeked.

[00:18:57] Carmen: Yeah, I’m in it right now.

[00:18:59] Limmie: I’m glad to be in the number, you know?

[00:19:02] Carmen: That’s right.

[00:19:03] Limmie: But to be on the stage where I grew up—about an hour and a half north of Memphis.

[00:19:07] Carmen: That’s right.

[00:19:08] Limmie: I had hometown people, family, and friends in the audience.

[00:19:12] Carmen: They were in there too.

[00:19:13] Limmie: Yes. I’m singing in the Orpheum Theatre in Memphis, which was...

[00:19:16] Carmen: Yes.

[00:19:17] Limmie: The crown jewel of Memphis.

[00:19:18] Carmen: Yes, of course. For those of you who don’t know, that is considered the spot.

[00:19:22] Limmie: Yes.

[00:19:23] Carmen: Yes, of course. For those of you who don’t know, that is considered the spot.

[00:19:27] Limmie: Yes. And I couldn’t have asked for better. But it was also, those first couple of years of doing that were fabulous. But to kind of progress outside of that young artist realm...

[00:19:38] Carmen: Right.

[00:19:39] Limmie: Things weren’t always pleasant.

[00:19:41] Carmen: Right. Let’s talk about it, because it’s one of the most compelling parts of your journey—why you stopped singing and what casting directors would say to you. So let’s just help the audience understand what was happening that was giving you pause as you were pursuing your career.

[00:19:58] Limmie: We would send out information to different companies to request auditions, and you would receive what we call PFOs, which is kind of a short, derogatory term for “please F off.”

[00:20:11] Carmen: Oh no.

[00:20:12] Limmie: Or rejection letters from companies. I would get little messages or emails from general directors. A couple of them once said, "You have probably one of the most moving voices I’ve heard in probably the last decade, but call me after you’ve lost 50 pounds, and then I’ll give you a live audition."

[00:20:30] Carmen: Wow.

[00:20:32] Limmie: So when you have things like that, that seem to happen time and time again, it doesn’t seem as if the industry really cares about the voices. The voices are what really draw people to this art form.

[00:20:44] Carmen: Of course.

[00:20:45] Limmie: And I think so many in the industry have forgotten that. And so many people in positions of power and administration don’t really understand that because they’ve never been on this side of the curtain, so to speak.

[00:20:56] Carmen: Help me understand, Limmie. Because, listen, I’m not—I think I’m like a regular audience member of opera. I don’t see very many operas where people are waif-like necessarily. Was the industry shifting?

[00:21:10] Limmie: There was a shift taking place. You had very well-known artists at the time who were being fired and not rehired by major companies. Probably one of the most famous incidents was called the "black dress incident."

[00:21:23] Carmen: Oh, okay.

[00:21:24] Limmie: One of the top sopranos in the world was fired simply because she couldn’t fit into a black dress that the designer wanted her to wear.

[00:21:31] Carmen: Oh, no.

[00:21:33] Limmie: So they wanted to have a singer who could fit the dress instead of making the dress to fit the singer.

[00:21:38] Carmen: Wow. And so we’re talking now in the early 2000s, we are starting to have an industry shift that is choosing what they consider image over vocal prowess.

[00:21:48] Limmie: Yes. Their thing was they were wanting to go for more realism on stage. And I’m thinking, "Am I not real? Even as a person of size, I experience the same emotions that someone who’s 150 pounds experiences. I love, I hurt, I feel joy, I feel pain." It was a shift that I didn’t quite understand.

[00:22:08] Carmen: Right.

[00:22:10] Limmie: And I became quite resentful.

[00:22:12] Carmen: I want to talk a little bit about your emotional sort of framework at the time, because all of us sometimes deal with rejection and things that don’t go our way. But a consistent kind of industry approach that says that the work that we do—because of what we look like—isn’t valued, that’s hurtful.

[00:22:30] Limmie: It is. And I was very resentful to the point where I was sort of selfishly walking away from the industry in a way, saying, "This industry doesn’t deserve me. So why am I going to continue to try? Why am I casting my pearls before swine?" That type of feeling.

[00:22:45] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:22:46] Limmie: So I walked away. And I didn’t just walk away from classical music—I even stopped singing gospel. I stopped singing everything. You couldn’t pay me to stand in front of an audience to sing.

[00:22:58] Carmen: Wow.

[00:22:59] Limmie: Once I walked away.

[00:23:00] Carmen: And I’m assuming that your gift is obviously close to you. It means a lot to you. So you’re in this period of time where you are not giving your gift to anyone?

[00:23:10] Limmie: No. I was the son of a preacher, so even my dad would try to convince me to come and sing at his church, and I would make up every excuse I could not to.

[00:23:19] Carmen: Wow. Now you’re not singing. What are you doing to manage your life? How are you making income? What are we doing? You are not pursuing this thing that we have already talked about—the universe has destined you to do it. The universe has plucked you out. Someone said, "Who’s this voice? Got to go to Oberlin," and now you’re not singing. What are you doing?

[00:23:41] Limmie: I worked odd jobs. I started working in collections and utilizing...

[00:23:46] Carmen: So you’re the person who’s calling people on the phone?

[00:23:49] Limmie: I was, and I was good at it.

[00:23:50] Carmen: Using your voice to say, "Hey, pay your bills."

[00:23:53] Limmie: I was one of those people who never yelled at anyone, never berated anyone. I just talked to people the way I wanted to be talked to.

[00:24:01] Carmen: I was going to say, you sound like a kind voice to say to me, "You’re a couple hundred bucks behind on the water bill."

[00:24:08] Limmie: Let’s work together. Let’s get this thing figured out. I’d say, "I’m the last person going to call you before they send this to the legal departments. I can help you. I can help you out here."

[00:24:18] Limmie: I worked in collections and was able to use the language skills that I had built up as, you know, studying different foreign languages—French, Italian, Spanish.

[00:24:28] Carmen: Yes. So I hope the audience knows that, and this happens here at Oberlin as well, but all of our students who are in opera are learning other languages. Singing in other languages is an important part of the skill set of our operatic voices. So, you know, when you hear them singing in those languages, oftentimes they’ve been studying those languages and getting the diction right. That’s why you had that skill set of speaking in other languages.

[00:24:50] Limmie: And it came in handy. There just happened to be one day where someone needed help on a Spanish call, and the Spanish translators that they had hired were both busy. So I said, "I’ll take the call." They said, "But you don’t speak Spanish." I was like, "I kind of do." And so I took the call, and we were able to secure the payment and get everything done. From then on, I was doing foreign language calls.

[00:25:11] Carmen: Oh my gosh.

[00:25:12] Limmie: Yeah.

[00:25:13] Carmen: So what other—so your collections, other odd jobs you were having as you were kind of making your way?

[00:25:18] Limmie: I went into the security field, which is where I began working for Clear Channel Entertainment. And I was a supervisor with them for a number of summers, working for the largest concert tour promoter in the country. We were based in St. Louis. We would do concerts throughout the summer in St. Louis, and then we would have a group that would travel throughout the Midwest to kind of help at other venues—Kansas City, Indianapolis.

[00:25:40] Carmen: Yeah. So you’re doing the concert series that come through town. You’re doing security for whatever the big names are at the time.

[00:25:47] Limmie: Jay-Z, Snoop, Alicia Keys, Pink, Usher—a lot of big names.

[00:25:52] Carmen: Wow.

[00:25:53] Limmie: But after doing that for about five years, I was approached by my boss, who was the general director of the amphitheater. And he said, "We’ve been sending you guys all these other places, but Clear Channel doesn’t want to take on the liability anymore."

[00:26:05] Carmen: Okay.

[00:26:06] Limmie: He’s the one who put the idea in my head of starting my own security firm.

[00:26:10] Carmen: What?

[00:26:11] Limmie: He said, "You can have all of our employees. They’re already trained. We’ve already paid for their licensing, and you could hit the ground running with your own firm." And so I did.

[00:26:20] Carmen: And were you thinking about music at all at this time, Limmie? Was it just a distant thing? Did it come up in your mind? Are you just saying this career is over? What are you thinking?

[00:26:30] Limmie: At that point, I thought the career was over. But I was still satisfied in the sense that I was still surrounded by music.

[00:26:38] Carmen: Okay.

[00:26:39] Limmie: But it was just behind the scenes.

[00:26:41] Carmen: Right. And did anybody know in your circle there about your voice and what your skill set was?

[00:26:47] Limmie: Yeah, a few people did.

[00:26:48] Carmen: Okay.

[00:26:49] Limmie: A few people did—my immediate boss, my immediate supervisor, and a couple of friends who I invited in as partners with my security firm. They knew. They would, from time to time, try to get me to sing, and I would just think, "No, I don’t do that anymore. Sorry."

[00:27:04] Carmen: Wow.

[00:27:05] Limmie: But along those lines, when I grew up, my piano teacher was Sheryl Crow’s mother.

[00:27:09] Carmen: Oh gosh, okay.

[00:27:10] Limmie: In high school. And so, every time I would see Sheryl...

[00:27:13] Carmen: On stage or something?

[00:27:15] Limmie: Yeah. Yeah, we did several events with her through my company. And even though I was working, we would be walking her to the stage, and she would be saying, "You know, you need to be singing. You’re supposed to be singing. Why are you not singing? You need to be singing."

[00:27:28] Carmen: Wow.

[00:27:29] Limmie: And I don’t think there was a time I saw her when she didn’t just come at me and say, "Why are you not singing?" So that little voice was always in the back of my head.

[00:27:37] Carmen: Okay.

[00:27:38] Limmie: But it wasn’t enough to make me want to go back to what I had left.

[00:27:43] Carmen: Right.

[00:27:44] Limmie: If it was going to be that way, I didn’t want any part of it.

[00:27:47] Carmen: Right. Those of you who haven’t, there was an incredible story about Limmie in The New York Times that recounts the story of kind of how you came back to music. Maybe help our audience understand how you came back and what that day was like, by all accounts kind of reigniting your career.

[00:27:59] Limmie: Yeah, so it was 2007. I was working as a field organizer for Obama’s first campaign.

[00:28:05] Carmen: Okay.

[00:28:06] Limmie: I was overseeing the five most southern counties in Missouri, and we were doing a local event. They had some surrogates that they had sent in for these events and whatnot. So I had invited someone to sing the national anthem.

[00:28:19] Carmen: Right. As we see at all these events, someone gets up there and sings it. Great. Let’s hear the candidates.

[00:28:24] Limmie: That’s right. And we were all set. And the day of, they get cold feet. I’m thinking, "Okay, we’ll just scratch the anthem for today and go on with the formality."

[00:28:33] Carmen: Get to the nitty gritty.

[00:28:34] Limmie: Get to the nitty gritty.

[00:28:35] Carmen: They’re here to tell us about why we should elect them.

[00:28:37] Limmie: My boss didn’t like that idea. He says, "Well, can we get someone else to do it?" And I said, "I don’t know of anybody else who could do it on such short notice."

[00:28:44] Carmen: Right.

[00:28:45] Limmie: And he says, "Well, didn’t that résumé of yours say you used to be an opera singer?" I said, "Used to be. It’s been several years since I’ve sung at all in public—over five years now."

[00:28:55] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:28:56] Limmie: He goes, "How bad could it be?" I said, "It could be pretty bad. I have no idea what’s going to come out of my mouth. That’s the thing."

[00:29:02] Carmen: Right.

[00:29:03] Limmie: And he says, "I don’t think anybody would notice." I said, "But I would notice. I have standards, and if it’s not up to those standards, then I’m definitely going to notice. I would be horrified." But he insisted and insisted. So I finally go off to a quiet place and just start searching for a key in which I could do it, one that was comfortable enough, because the anthem has a wide range.

[00:29:24] Carmen: Yes. And it’s not—listen, it’s not the easiest piece to sing.

[00:29:28] Limmie: It is not. So I found a comfortable key. I stood in front of that audience, and I sang it.

[00:29:34] Carmen: What? Before you say that—I mean, you walk up to the stage. How are you feeling? I mean, you’ve been...

[00:29:40] Limmie: I was so nervous. I mean, my stomach was like in my throat because I had no idea what was about to come out of my mouth.

[00:29:46] Carmen: Right. And you hadn’t done this in five years, and now you’re up before an audience when you’re not even singing at your local church.

[00:29:53] Limmie: And so I stand there, and I start singing. And by the end of it, it was almost as if I had kind of disassociated myself from what was going on.

[00:30:02] Carmen: Yeah, out of your body a little bit.

[00:30:04] Limmie: Yes. And then afterwards, people clapped. Several people came up to me because it was in my hometown. They said, "Oh, it’s so nice to hear your voice again. It’s wonderful."

[00:30:14] Carmen: Wow.

[00:30:15] Limmie: And it was then, as I began to kind of tinker with the voice a little bit afterward...

[00:30:20] Carmen: Did it just open the door in a way that you hadn’t planned?

[00:30:23] Limmie: Yeah, because I didn’t expect it to be as good as it came out, because I was so out of practice. So I began kind of tinkering with things in my room at home. I would sing along with some recordings that I had and different things.

[00:30:36] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:30:37] Limmie: Then one day, I found a trunk of mine, and it had a lot of my lesson tapes in it from early—my days at Oberlin.

[00:30:44] Carmen: From Oberlin.

[00:30:45] Limmie: Oh, wow.

[00:30:46] Carmen: Wow.

[00:30:47] Limmie: So I had several videotapes of lessons I had with Richard Miller. I started popping them in and started working with those tapes.

[00:30:53] Carmen: Back to your old instructors. Your old vocal coach.

[00:30:56] Limmie: Back to my old instructors.

[00:30:58] Carmen: And what happened?...

[00:31:00] Limmie: It was one of those things that—it was almost like riding a bicycle, in a way. As I began to work with the tapes, the coordination began to come back. As I started to pay more attention to the voice, I said, "This voice is different than it was."

[00:31:13] Carmen: Wow.

[00:31:14] Limmie: Different from the voice that you left five years ago.

[00:31:17] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:31:18] Limmie: It’s different. Something’s changed.

[00:31:20] Carmen: Hmm. Do you pinpoint what it is?

[00:31:22] Limmie: Not until I began experimenting with different types of repertoire.

[00:31:27] Carmen: Okay.

[00:31:28] Limmie: I started trying to sing things that I was singing five years earlier. Those things didn’t feel as comfortable. So I began experimenting with a little bit of a heavier repertoire.

[00:31:36] Carmen: Help the audience understand what you mean by heavier repertoire.

[00:31:39] Limmie: So each voice comes in different types. You have lyric tenors, who are kind of like your everyday kind of tenor; leggero tenors, which are very light-voiced tenors; and then you have spinto and dramatic tenors, which are tenors that have a more robust sound and stronger voices that are able to carry over very dense orchestrations.

[00:31:59] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:32:00] Limmie: So I began experimenting with more dramatic repertoire.

[00:32:02] Carmen: And that voice wasn’t as available to you five years before?

[00:32:06] Limmie: No. The rep that I started experimenting with was stuff that—one, I really never thought I would be singing.

[00:32:12] Limmie: I don’t know if Mr. Miller ever knew that this might be my future or if he ever thought it might be my future. We would always joke about certain things. He had me sing Nessun Dorma at a couple of things as like a party trick. He’d say, "Okay, that’s it. One time. Don’t touch it again for another 20 years."

[00:32:30] Carmen: Wow.

[00:32:31] Limmie: Nessun Dorma, Otello, which kind of became my true signature role, Canio in I Pagliacci. I’m beginning to start looking at the Wagnerian repertoire now.

[00:32:42] Carmen: Wow.

[00:32:43] Limmie: So it was a complete change for me on the type of repertoire and the type of voice that I was so used to hearing internally myself—it had completely shifted.

[00:32:53] Carmen: Wow.

[00:32:54] Limmie: And what I really thought in the beginning was maybe I wasted time by not singing over those years really turned into a blessing.

[00:33:03] Carmen: Wow. That you’ve come to know that was necessary.

[00:33:06] Limmie: It was necessary.

[00:33:07] Carmen: It was necessary—this change, this break.

[00:33:10] Limmie: Yeah, it allowed the voice to kind of settle and mature and to grow without me putting the extra miles on it, so to speak.

[00:33:17] Carmen: What an incredible lesson for all of us, right? But certainly for our students. You know, sometimes things that seem like setbacks are just you falling forward, right? It seems like it’s the worst thing that’s happened.

[00:33:28] Limmie: Yeah. I jokingly say I’m 48 now, but my voice is 36.

[00:33:34] Carmen: Talk about this—at least from our perspective as people who are so proud of what you’ve accomplished—this kind of explosion back into the industry. I think when we saw you at Carnegie Hall, I think you had set up the Cleveland Orchestra at the time. I think you had the Met coming up, and you were debuting at Carnegie Hall.

[00:33:50] Limmie: Yeah, within a month.

[00:33:51] Carmen: Within a month. That’s right. That’s right. It’s sort of like this voice that hadn’t been here—leaving the industry because of these shifting views—and then this launch back into the industry. Tell me what you’ve been hearing, what you’ve been feeling as you’re back in this space in a different way. And I’m hoping people have left behind that shift that pushed you out, in your own view of things.

[00:34:12] Limmie: Not everyone has. The way I approach my career is so much differently now. Whereas before, I would kind of shy away from the topic of if my size is going to be an issue. And as you talk about running to the noise, I would just put it on the table: "Please let me know now if this is going to be an issue. I don’t want to waste my time. I don’t want to waste yours."

[00:34:31] Carmen: Right.

[00:34:32] Limmie: "So if it’s going to be an issue, let me know now."

[00:34:35] Carmen: Be plain spoken. I just said that in a meeting the other day to someone. Be plain spoken.

[00:34:39] Limmie: Yeah. So when I—my current agent—when I went in to audition for them, I said to her, "I don’t know if my size is going to be an issue for you. But I want an agent who I know is going to fight for me in rooms that I can’t get in myself."

[00:34:51] Carmen: That’s right.

[00:34:52] Limmie: She said, "I don’t see an issue at all." We have a great working relationship, and I think our collaboration has been the key to me being where I am now.

[00:35:03] Carmen: I’m wondering, Limmie, whether this career arc and what you’ve experienced—the pain of it, the difficulty of it, and then coming back to it—we talked at the beginning of this conversation about how you reach audiences. Whether you think this experience has been part of your ability to be able to do that. What would you say about how you’re able to connect with audiences now because of the experience that you’ve had?

[00:35:26] Limmie: I think of singing differently in the sense that, of course, our sound comes from our vocal cords and our throats, but I believe to genuinely touch people, the sound has to first begin in your heart and then work its way up. Without that heart in the sound, it’s extremely difficult to connect with people. So you have to have—the heart is what I think reaches people and moves people.

[00:35:50] Carmen: And I’ll offer this up, because I know this is you. That heart has to have gone through something.

[00:35:56] Limmie: It really has.

[00:35:57] Carmen: You know, it reminds me—I know you have this—it’s a feeling, too, if you grew up in the church. I remember as a young kid sitting there and watching my parents or someone in the church, and they would be older, and they would be crying about something, and you wouldn’t quite know what it is. You’d just sing along. The song didn’t mean the same thing to you as it meant to them because their heart had been through something.

[00:36:16] Limmie: Oh yeah. So much that we didn’t understand growing up in the church—that the experiences with a certain song really spoke to someone’s heart.

[00:36:25] Carmen: Yes.

[00:36:26] Limmie: To the point that they were able to become emotional.

[00:36:28] Carmen: Yes.

[00:36:29] Limmie: One of the things I do each time before I walk on stage—the last thing I do is I pray. I ask that I’m allowed to remove self from this, and that it becomes about the music, and that everyone within the hearing would experience, whether whatever they believe—God or whatever higher being they may be—that they experience His presence through our music-making.

[00:36:49] Carmen: Yes.

[00:36:50] Limmie: And that’s my goal each and every time that I go out and sing.

[00:36:54] Carmen: I have to say, the last time I saw you sing, I know what we experienced on that stage.

[00:36:58] Carmen: And in that moment, I can’t let our conversation end without talking about Omar. Just so this audience knows, Omar is an opera written by Rhiannon Giddens, who is an Oberlin graduate. Most of you know that—if you haven’t listened to my podcast with Rhiannon, just go back and listen to it. You’ll know all about her and what she’s done. But she wrote this Pulitzer Prize-winning opera, Omar, and it’s based on a 19th-century Islamic scholar, Omar, who was enslaved in South Carolina.

[00:37:28] Carmen: And it’s the only slave narrative that we have that’s written in Arabic. So when I interviewed Rhiannon, what she said to me about Omar was that when she was building that show and its premiere—and I know you were involved in the workshops—you were in the DNA of that show as she was thinking about that voice. So tell us a little bit about your involvement in Omar in the early stages and what you think about this role.

[00:37:51] Limmie: I was honored to have been asked to take part in the workshops for this, as Rhiannon is a dear friend. But from the very start, from the very first notes I heard, I knew this was going to be a very special piece. Strictly from the sense that, unlike a lot of what I consider contemporary operas now, the music of this opera really resonates.

[00:38:13] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:38:14] Limmie: It’s deeply moving. I think Rhiannon was able to really capture so much about Omar—his culture, his heritage, and the sound. The orchestration that she and Michael Abels came up with—to me, it’s kind of mind-blowing to hear this mash-up of Middle Eastern, bluegrass, and classical, and all these genres in this melting pot of music.

[00:38:35] Carmen: That’s right.

[00:38:36] Limmie: And it is so inspiring. I’m so excited to get to be a part of its premiere at Oberlin.

[00:38:41] Carmen: We are excited to see you, Limmie. I will be thinking about you, right before that stage sort of moment, knowing that you’re in prayer for us to be moved. And I just can’t tell you how incredibly proud I am of you representing the people at Oberlin.

[00:38:58] Carmen: Because I think that, for our students, but for anyone, sometimes we think careers are linear. And we watch people in these really successful moments, and we kind of think it’s always been that way—just kind of flowed, and they did this thing next, and all of a sudden, there they are on the stage at Carnegie Hall. But we never know what people’s challenges and struggles are and the things they’ve had to overcome and what’s gotten them there.

[00:39:25] Carmen: And I guess, you know, whatever you think that you need to say to our students in this moment about what it means to be resilient and to come back better than ever.

[00:39:34] Limmie: I think I would really just encourage students and people aspiring for careers in this industry to really—as you say, the title of yours—to run to the noise, to really face challenges head-on. When you face a challenge head-on, you give yourself the chance to turn an obstacle into an opportunity. Every challenge we face holds a lesson that’s just waiting to be uncovered.

[00:39:56] Limmie: So really, don’t be afraid to face your fears, to step out of your comfort zone, to be persistent in your work, to be consistent in your work, and don’t let a "no" deter you from continuing to push forward.

[00:40:11] Carmen: That’s right. Because to me, it was so powerful that, in the end, you didn’t let the industry’s framework define you.

[00:40:19] Limmie: Exactly. It’s up to us to take control of our own destinies and to define ourselves, as opposed to allowing other people to define us.

[00:40:29] Carmen: Amen. Thanks, Limmie. I had such a good time.

[00:40:32] Limmie: Thank you.

[00:40:33] Carmen: Thank you.

[00:40:34] Limmie: Thank you.

[00:40:35] Carmen: Thanks for listening to Running to the Noise, a podcast produced by Oberlin College and Conservatory.

[00:40:42] Carmen: Our music is composed by Professor of Jazz Guitar Bobby Ferrazza and performed by the Oberlin Sonny Rollins Jazz Ensemble, a student group created through the support of the legendary jazz musician.

[00:40:56] Carmen: If you enjoyed the show, be sure to hit that subscribe button, leave us a review, and share this episode online so Obies and other folks can find this too.

[00:41:06] Carmen: I’m Carmen Twillie Ambar, and I’ll be back soon with more great conversations from thought leaders on and off our campus.