The Courage to Do the Hard Thing | Bonus Release

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I am Carmen Twillie Ambar, president of Oberlin College and Conservatory. Welcome to Running to the Noise, where I speak with all sorts of folks who are tackling our toughest problems and working to spark positive change around the world.

Because here at Oberlin, we don't shy away from the challenging situations that threaten to divide us.

We run towards them.

Ken Wendt: Hi, I'm Ken Wendt, lead producer on Running to the Noise. One of the common threads we've noticed in these conversations curated by President Ambar is the theme of what it means to have courage to do the hard things.

That might mean starting over, risking rejection, or stepping forward when staying comfortable would be easier.

In this bonus episode, we've gathered perspectives from Rumaan Alam, Soledad O'Brien, Timothy Uyeki, La Tanya Hall, and Georgia Heers on what that courage looks like in their work and lives.

Let's start with bestselling author and Oberlin alum Rumaan Alam, who reflects on the courage it takes to step outside your comfort zone, challenge expectations, and pursue difficult subjects through your work.

Carmen: Lots of the topics that you have pursued, race, class, power, how it divides us, it feels that maybe, maybe in this moment, like, those topics are riskier.

And I'm wondering, what's your perspective on kind of the risk you take in your work? Do you think about it that way? What should we know about when you're pursuing these topics, whether you view them as risky?

Rumaan Alam: You know what's funny is that I would say that I don't, even though I'm aware that they are.

And I suppose that is probably also down to Oberlin, which is not a place known for its risk-averse population, right?

Carmen: Yes.

Rumaan: It's an institution that, in fact, encourages, if not rewards, a willingness to push artistically, intellectually, just in terms of pure intellectual stamina even.

Carmen: Right, right.

Rumaan: That sets your expectations for everything that comes after.

So if you are having an undergraduate experience where your professors were, as mine were, saying to me, "Oh, what you're writing is clearly a novel. Keep going."

You're not hearing anyone say, "Oh, be careful when writing about race, 'cause that's sensitive."

Carmen: Right.

Rumaan: "Be careful when writing across the differences of sex, because that's sensitive in the contemporary culture."

I never heard a message like that from any of the people who guided my education.

Carmen: Right, right.

Rumaan: And I never really heard them from my peers and my fellow students.

And so, in a way, it doesn't come into play when I'm working. I don't have that nagging voice.

Carmen: Right. Even though you know that the work may be received that way or perceived that way, it's not what's driving or animating you.

Rumaan: It's not.

Carmen: You're just pursuing the art as you see it.

Rumaan: I also think that, I hope, that I have a sense that I could get it wrong, and that that is okay.

Carmen: Yeah.

Rumaan: Right? My new book, Entitlement, the protagonist of the book is a Black woman. Well, I'm not a Black woman.

Carmen: Although people have given you lots of praise for being able to write in the voice of women in particular.

Rumaan: I find that very gratifying. It makes me happy. It makes me feel like, okay, I've accomplished the task I set for myself.

But I know that I have to accept the judgment of a reader who feels that I didn't accomplish that. And that is also okay.

Like, I think that is also something that you have to learn in your education, that you can try and you will succeed.

No one's gonna succeed at 100%. This isn't like a third-grade spelling test. It doesn't work that way. And that's okay.

Carmen: Yeah. How do you get in that voice that's not your own and that's not your background?

Rumaan: It certainly helps to have an experience of life where you are with people who are different.

And you see the fundamental humanity that is shared among all people, no matter what their demographic differences might be.

If you've spent your life in the hothouse of your own identity and are unaware of the fact that other people feel exactly the same way you do...

Carmen: I feel like saying, "Preach, preach."

Rumaan: Right? I mean, everybody looks at the sky and sees it the same way. Everybody wants to eat one meal that their mother makes. Everybody wants to go home and take their shoes off, right?

There are fundamental human experiences that are shared.

If you are working in good faith, you can try anything. If you're working in bad faith, Godspeed.

But if I were writing a novel starring, so to speak, a Black woman to prosecute the case that I hate Black women, then that's doomed to failure.

I have to just trust that I have a reader who will see that I'm working in good faith and hope that I get it mostly right.

Carmen: Well, it reminds me of one of the things I say about what we're trying to accomplish here at Oberlin.

It's why we do things like Meet Full Need and other things that try to bring a diverse set of voices to campus.

It's that we have this tagline here, you know, "Think one person can change the world? So do we."

And I oftentimes say to our prospective students, "If you're gonna go change the world for good, you doggone better have met somebody who has a different perspective than you do, so you can get it right."

And so I appreciate your willingness to kind of get into a zone with people who are different than you, have different perspectives than you do.

Rumaan: It's the only way to remotely get those voices right.

That fundamental respect for difference, you have to possess that, and you have to be in places where that is a given.

Ken: For award-winning journalist Soledad O'Brien, courage took on a different meaning when she stepped away from the security of network television to build something of her own.

Here's what she learned from taking that leap.

Carmen: I'm wondering what the kind of nerves were to launch out on your own, not without the safety net of the news network.

Did you have... What was that? Were you fearful? Were you confident? Where were you?

Soledad O'Brien: A little bit of both.

I was a little worried because once you lose your platform, right, if you can't get people on TV, if you can't do stories, it's really hard.

But on the other hand, I knew that there were certain things that I knew how to do.

I'd been at it for quite a long time, and I knew I had a big enough, like, name...

Carmen: Following, yes.

Soledad: Brand name, that, you know...

Carmen: Name, yes.

Soledad: Yeah. So it was a combination.

I felt so awkward calling myself a CEO. I'd almost mumble it, like, "Yeah, I'm this, you know, I'm the CEO."

'Cause it just felt so ridiculous, right?

I mean, I'm the CEO, but I'm also emptying the garbage cans, and I'm trying to figure out, you know, are we gonna be able to make payroll?

Carmen: That's right. That's right.

Soledad: I was very fortunate because I had spent a lot of time working in broadcast and in cable news, and had been paid at a pretty high level.

So I had good savings that I could immediately get a space in New York City.

Carmen: Right. Take a risk and do some things, yeah.

Soledad: So that was a really big thing.

The thing I regret the most is that I honestly did not know how to do a budget.

I was a TV anchor. I'd never run a P&L. I'd never done a real budget. I'd never been responsible for that.

And so I always advise people, all you entrepreneurs, take accounting.

Because I promise you, when it's your actual money, it actually hurts a lot to make a mistake on that front.

I did a budget once, and somebody, people told me, they're like, "Oh, I'm super good at budgets. I'll do the budget."

And like an idiot, I'm like, "Okay," because I don't know how to do budgets.

Carmen: Right.

Soledad: And then that budget was the worst, terrible, awful-est budget I've ever been part of, and I made, like, 98 cents a day shooting 12 hours a day.

Carmen: Oh my gosh.

Soledad: When you realize, like, actually, I do know about budgets. I do know about how much hair and makeup costs.

Carmen: That's right.

Soledad: I do know about travel.

And so I think anybody who's really thinking about being an entrepreneur in some capacity, really understanding money.

Because when it's your own money, I promise you, making that kind of mistake is not fun.

Carmen: Well, the other thing I love about it is that sometimes at small liberal arts colleges, people can say, "Well, why do you have business?" And, "Is that really us?"

And they don't realize the ability to make change in the world that can happen in all of these different ways.

And so here you are, entrepreneur, CEO of your own production company, making the types of stories that make a difference.

Soledad: Yeah, I mean, that's...

Carmen: And it's a business, right?

Soledad: And it's a business.

It's literally all we do is... And again, people are always like, "You're on your own, so it must be so great."

I'm like, "No, no. All I do is do meetings."

I literally get on the phone and I beg Netflix to talk to me so that I can pitch my next project, and hopefully we framed it in a way that they think is interesting.

So yeah, I think having students really understand what business means is crucial.

Ken: Sometimes courage isn't about making a dramatic decision. It's about finding your voice.

Professor La Tanya Hall and Oberlin alum Georgia Heers reflect on what that means.

Carmen: I'll ask you both the last question that I tend to ask all of the folks who happen to be on my podcast.

So you'll recall that Michelle Obama was the inspiration for the title of this podcast because she said that Obies are the type of people that run to the noise.

That's what kind of distinguishes those of us who are a part of this Oberlin community.

So I'm wondering if you all could just, as our last moment together, tell me what running to the noise means to you for either your work or your career, any way you wanna think about that phrase.

So we'll give our recent graduate the last word.

Professor Hall, so we'll ask you first. What is running to the noise for you?

La Tanya Hall: I think it's about taking risks, right, and being willing to step in the fray when things seem scary and when things seem uncertain.

That's one of the things that I've always loved about the Oberlin community, is our students are bold.

Carmen: Mm.

La Tanya: They're bold about speaking up for the things that matter to them and the things that are important.

And it's also been a bit of a learning lesson for me too, who tends to be very introverted and very shy, even though I've chosen a career in the arts.

But they've taught me to sometimes stand up for things that may be risky.

But what is the saying? "Fortune favors the bold," I think is what we're talking about.

And I think that running to the noise means being willing to take those steps to make sure that you are heard and fighting for things that are right and just and fair.

Carmen: Love it. Georgia, you get the last word. Running to the noise.

Georgia Heers: Dang it, man. Things to follow that.

But honestly, what you said, though, La Tanya, reminds me of this quote from the end of Good Night, and Good Luck that George says, or it's Edward Murrow's words.

But he says, "The question isn't about what the 1% or what the people in power will do with the power that they have taken or usurped."

We know what that looks like. We've seen.

But it's what will you do with your ability to influence?

And President Ambar, like you always said, students from Oberlin, one person can change the world.

In a very literal sense, I think Running to the Noise is about understanding that you have the ability to make change, if not for the entire world, it's in your life, in someone else's life.

It's about the daily. It's about the small things.

So I'm learning what it means to organize just in my own life, in small ways.

Carmen: That's right. It doesn't have to be big.

I just have to say, as president of this institution, I'm so proud of both of you, but I love this mentor-mentee relationship.

We know you all will be connected forever. That will be what it is. But I'm so happy that Oberlin was a part of it.

But one of the things I said that's so distinctive about Oberlin is who is drawn to us.

Because I say to every student who gets admitted to Oberlin that I really do believe that the universe has me here to tell them that there's something special you're supposed to do in the world, and Oberlin's a part of it.

Ken: Finally, courage can mean answering a call that others might understandably hesitate to accept.

Public health expert and Oberlin alum Dr. Timothy Uyeki shares what has motivated him to confront some of the world's most urgent health emergencies.

Carmen: How do you sustain yourself when you are dealing with this level of tragedy?

Timothy Uyeki: It's a real challenge, but having had the experience of taking care of very sick patients and unfortunately having patients die, it's something that you never get over.

On the other hand, you have to keep moving forward.

And what keeps me going is really collaborating with a lot of people all over the world, and that means a lot of people outside CDC, throughout the U.S., and then people in other countries.

And probably the most stimulating for me is when I'm working on problems and collaborating with people far from Atlanta.

It's really hard to answer that question, but having been lucky to have worked on a number of sort of urgent public health problems, and going through the stress, you kind of know what to expect, although every situation is unpredictable.

Carmen: For the audience, you've worked on SARS, Ebola, influenza, obviously some of the most deadly and difficult public health crises that the world has experienced.

Timothy: Well, someone's got to do it.

And I have some experiences and probably some skills that I feel I can contribute.

I can recall back September 11th in the U.S., and it was rather devastating, and we were all worrying about a potential bioterrorism attack.

Even thinking about, could there be a smallpox release?

Ended up being, unfortunately, a lot of white powder was sent to major media companies, and we had, unfortunately, some postal workers that died of inhalation anthrax.

But I can remember, because of the tragedies of 9/11, and because of the concern about bioterrorism, I remember getting a phone call and saying, "We'll give you 30 minutes to respond. You can't tell anyone. We're assembling a secretive group to prepare for a potential smallpox attack. Your name came up, and we wanted to know if you will join."

And I sort of got pretty stressed about that, but then I thought, "Somebody's got to do it."

And so I called back and said, "Yes, I'm gonna volunteer."

Carmen: Wow.

Timothy: Over the years, when these kinds of events come up, I tend to volunteer because I've worked in different countries, all levels of public health, all levels of the World Health Organization.

I've been in the field. I enjoy that work.

Is it stressful? It's incredibly stressful because...

Carmen: It sounds stressful, and I'm not doing it.

Timothy: But I just sort of feel like, "Hey, I wanna help."

And I don't know if I can pinpoint where that comes from, if it comes from just this...

Carmen: Social responsibility, this commitment.

Timothy: Whether one could say, "Oh, it comes from Oberlin College," I don't know.

I just like helping in those kinds of emergencies, and when the situation comes...

Carmen: You answer the call.

Timothy: I try to answer the call.

And it's those kinds of collaborations, and sometimes, you know, it's 10 years later.

"Hey, I worked with you in this country. I worked with you on this project, and here we are working again together, side by side, in this."

And that has actually happened, and so the world is a lot smaller than we think, and so that's kind of invigorating and rewarding, actually.

Carmen: The world's a lot smaller than we think, and the world's a lot safer than we know because of the work that you do.

You already answered what my question was going to be.

So this audience knows the title of this podcast, Running to the Noise, we got from Michelle Obama's commencement address here at Oberlin.

And so I always ask the participants on this podcast, how do they run to the noise?

But I think you just answered it, Tim.

And I guess what makes me so thankful about it is that all of us need images to look to, to know that what we want to achieve is possible.

I mean, I'm so glad you had a chance to speak to our students today because they're looking for a way to make the world be better.

They're looking for a way to have impact, and they're looking for people like you who they can say, "Tim did it, and he started here at Oberlin, so maybe I can do it 'cause I'm here at Oberlin."

Timothy: I think these students are gonna go do great things.

And I said to them, "There's so many public health problems that my generation has created and your parents' generation has created, and you need to go out and address and fix those problems."

And if just one of those students does that to contribute in some way, then it was great that I was able to maybe discuss that with that student.

I just wanna put a plug in for two Oberlin alumni.

Carmen: Okay.

Timothy: Keiji Fukuda and Tom Frieden.

Keiji was my supervisor when I came to CDC. He's still a close friend, and Keiji was an assistant director at the World Health Organization, so he was a leader at the global level.

Carmen: He graduated in '77. For those of you who don't know, that was the year he graduated from Oberlin.

Timothy: And another very prominent alumnus is Tom Frieden.

Tom was a year behind me at Oberlin, and he was the CDC director for quite a few years.

And he's now the head of Resolve to Save Lives, so he continues to work globally.

I'm a little embarrassed that I'm the guest on this podcast.

I mean, I feel very fortunate to have the privilege of talking to you, President Ambar, to have been able to meet you again. Now it's about my third or fourth time.

Carmen: That's right.

I'll say to the audience, I think Tim's diminishing himself a little bit, but I will say that one of the reasons why we have been focused on global public health as an area to really sort of highlight is because we have had so much success in having our alumni in this professional world and achieving some significant heights.

I think I jokingly said to you, Tim, when we were talking about your two colleagues, like, "What was in the water during that time?"

So the '70s, I think Tom's here in '82. You're a little bit in between them.

But having that leadership at the CDC all being Obies, I think says something about this institution and how we not only prepare students for leadership, but prepare them for going out and changing the world for good.

It's the commitment to serve and to do something that you know can make a difference, and it's an admirable quality that we just so value because we know so much that, as a society, people's willingness to sacrifice for the good of the whole is something that is rarer than we want it to be.

And so I just appreciate that work and service and willingness to go and do the difficult things so the rest of us can be safe.

Timothy: It's all part of the job.

Someone has to do it, and it's invigorating to work with people from other countries who are equally committed.

Carmen: You've been saying a couple of times through our conversation, Tim, that someone has to do it.

Someone has to do it, but some people choose to do it, and you have chosen to do it.

That's one of the things that makes you really special.

I really appreciate it.