Running to the Noise, Episode 29

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I'm Carmen Twillie Ambar, president of Oberlin College and Conservatory. Welcome to Running to the Noise, where I speak with all sorts of folks who are tackling our toughest problems and working to spark positive change around the world. Because here at Oberlin, we don't shy away from the challenging situations that threaten to divide us.

We run towards them.

So welcome to Running to the Noise. I'm your host, Carmen Twillie Ambar. I'm president of Oberlin College and Conservatory, and I wanna we- welcome Tamara Jade, Obie from 2012. Yes. And our students in the audience, say hello. Hello.

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So, um, let me tell you where you are for the folks who are on the live feed. We're gonna let you pop in. Um, I know you know our guest, but, uh, I wanna tell you where you are. So you're at Oberlin College and Conservatory in Oberlin, Ohio, and you're physically in the Berenbaum, which is t- one of our two jazz clubs on campus. Was this here when you were here?

Tamara Jade: It was not.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay. Well, you know, we keep upgrading. Yes. We keep, uh, getting new things. Uh, but students perform here, faculty perform here, and this is a space for people to come and do ensembles. We have a new music theater program. They just did a show here the other night, and it's a really great space to have a great conversation. Yes. So welcome.

Tamara Jade: Thank you.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Welcome back.

Tamara Jade: It's good to be home.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes, yes, yes. Well, I, um, wanna tell the students a little bit about you. I know that, that folks on your Instagram know. But I first heard about you... So Tamara was here before I was president. Yes. And, uh, there was this buzz on campus with the students. Everyone sort of had this whisper campaign going on that's like, "There's an Obie on The Voice. There's an Obie on The Voice." Uh, and so I started following you on Instagram. Yes. And for the students, uh, Tamara was a, a semifinalist on The Voice.

Tamara Jade: I was.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Um, has performed for Lizzo, Doja Cat. Was John Legend your-

Tamara Jade: He was my coach on The Voice, yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: He was your coach on The Voice. Very nice. Um, you've been at Lincoln Center. You just did a one-woman show at Lincoln Center, right?

Tamara Jade: I did. I debuted my Lincoln Center, uh, my one-woman show at Lincoln Center this Friday.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay. Mm-hmm. That's super cool. Um, you were on HBO's A Black Lady Sketch Show.

Tamara Jade: I was.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Very funny show. And you've just built this brand. And so just so you all know, Tamara was on my Running to the Noise podcast maybe several months ago. Mm-hmm. And we got into this really interesting discussion about what it is to be a creative in this space and place now.

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: What it means to build your brand, maybe some of the challenges- Mm-hmm ... and opportunities. And we decided that we wanted to bring her to campus so you all could hear her personally and ask your own questions, but also for the people on the feed to learn what it's like to, um, support yourself.

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: But also the challenges associated with it. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about why this was important to you to do.

Tamara Jade: Yeah. So, um, a question had come up during our podcast episode about whether social media was necessary, um, in order to have a career.

Student: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And I desperately wanted to say no. I really did. But, um, after that, I started to ask the question on behalf of the students to my colleagues who were in casting- Mm-hmm ... and who were in production and who were on the music side of things, but they're in the casting rooms. And they were telling me, yes, as soon as people walk out, they, uh, casting is looking at social media.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Um, and so I wanted to circle back and say, "Okay, let me re-answer the question." Um, but that stayed with me, and it, and the pressure... I, I had the... My pressure was about being good at the craft-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Right? Making sure that when I leave these doors, I can compete with my same age peers-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: In the real world. But I feel like there is a different pressure now.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Um, competing with everybody.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Hm.

Tamara Jade: Um, and I wanted to just kinda dig into that and, um, give you guys any tools that I could to ease that pressure- Yeah ... and give you things that have worked for me, um, as inspiration. I don't think that you should try to mimic or mirror anybody's journey, because that's their journey. Right. But that doesn't mean you can't learn things from it for yours- That's right ... and take pieces of it. Right. So I just wanted to... And, and then also, I wish that I had a me when I was here.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes. That's right, that's right.

Tamara Jade: Someone who had gone through it, you know?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah. It's much better to, to learn from someone else's mistakes and challenges-

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Than to do them all yourself.

Tamara Jade: Exactly.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Uh, and so I'm, I'm excited to have this conversation with you. But before we do that, I just want to, um, ask, you know, I know you were here for a solemn occasion. Yeah. Um, and I wanna make sure that we talk about why you came back to campus. Yes. Um, so maybe you can tell people a little bit about why you're back on campus.

Tamara Jade: Okay. So last year the Oberlin community lost two of its, uh, former voice faculty members, two longtime- Yes ... former fa- former faculty members, uh, Don May and my teacher Marlene Rosen. Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Over 40 years-

Tamara Jade: Of service- Over 40 years ... to the institution ... and retired from here. Right. So really just had a full, um, life. And so-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I think Don requ- uh, retired maybe a couple years after I got here.

Tamara Jade: Yes. You

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Know? Yes.

Tamara Jade: Yeah. And but Ms. Rosen was here-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: I think, a, a good amount of the, the journey. So, um, we had a memorial celebration where we got together and some of her foremost, former students sang, and it was just a beautiful, uh, communal grieving, if you will. Yeah. Which I didn't realize was, was necessary. I needed it to, to close the loop on that and to be able to, you know, hug her family and sing to them-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And show them, "This is what your mom, your wife did."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Did for you.

Tamara Jade: You know? And, um, it was just a nice reminder too like, man, we could really sing in her studio, baby. The singing was, you know, there. Was there. It's good. So that's, that was the, the first reason why I was here, which is why I reached out and said, "Well, since I'm already gonna be here-"

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's right.

Tamara Jade: "... can we do this too?"

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Let's do it.

Tamara Jade: Which is an example of, uh, pitching yourself, okay?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's ri- that's right. That's right. Yes. 'Cause we, um, 'cause the pitch was, "Let's come and do this," and of course I wanted to do it. And then I had to pitch back to her, which is, "Can we do it on your live feed?"

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right? Because lots of people around the world know Oberlin, and lots of people know, um, what we do here. But I wanted to make sure that the 70,000 people who are on Tamara's feed know us too, right?

Tamara Jade: That's right.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Um, so, um, that's why we ended up doing this. So, you know, let's start out with kind of, um, the big visible moments, right?

Tamara Jade: Okay.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So you had these really visible moments that everybody knows you for. Can you talk a little bit about that path though? Because people are seeing you with John Legend, they're seeing you with Doja Cat, they're seeing you at Lincoln Center. But there are a lot of little steps-

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Along the way.

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So maybe you could start and kind of walk us through kind of quickly, like right after Oberlin-

Tamara Jade: Okay.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Some things you did, and then how you got to these moments where I'm sure lots of you who are in this room, you know, would be like, "Yeah, this is a good career. I'll, I'll take all of this-"

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: "That, that Tamara's experienced." So maybe walk us through that a little bit.

Tamara Jade: Okay. Well, I have to start firstly with my first time at Oberlin and meeting Mrs. Rosen and sitting outside of the conservatory. She said, "Okay, so tell me, you know, what, what do you wanna do?" Yeah. And I was like, "I don't wanna sing opera."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Oh, gosh. Okay, so why are you here?

Tamara Jade: And I said, "I just wanna learn how to sing everything. Whatever I wanna sing, I want the technique, and I wanna be able to use my instrument properly and sing for the rest of my life." And so that's important for you to know because I spent my time here doing just that.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Uh, nobody could tell me to only sing one thing. I sang it all. I started singing jazz here before there was a jazz voice program. You guys are very blessed to have, uh, LaTanya Hall here now. But it was singing on people's senior recitals-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Because there, there was no jazz voices here. Um, so leaving Oberlin, um, something else, I went to a performing arts program for high school as well.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: So it was like 10 years straight of just, like, musical academics. Right. And so I say that-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: All the technique and, and stuff associated-

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: With being a musician and being technically sound.

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: Um, all the way around. Yeah. And so I did Oberlin and Italy as soon as I left.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: Um, and I sang La bohème, I sang Mimi. I was the lead.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's nice.

Tamara Jade: And it was great, and all the Italians-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: She said she was, she was the lead just so y'all know. Just, uh-

Tamara Jade: You know, just ... brush past that. Um, and all the Italians complimented my Italian, and I felt very unfulfilled.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Hmm.

Tamara Jade: I felt very, like, I did the thing and I was good at it, but I, I don't feel what it is that the people are telling me they feel.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Interesting.

Tamara Jade: And I deserve to feel fulfilled by this, too.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: As much as you feel inspired. And so I, after that, went back home to Maryland, and I got a job as a preschool music teacher at a-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: Church that I had been working at.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Interesting. And b- so supplementing the income, trying to be an artist and make this happen?

Tamara Jade: Well, trying to because the day before I started, I went to an audition in New York-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: For a tour that I booked.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Excellent.

Tamara Jade: So I didn't even get to work for them people for real. I didn't even get to work for them people for real. And it was a gospel tour.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: 'Cause remember, I wanna sing everything.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: I wanna sing anything. And I toured for three months, Germany, Italy, and Austria. It was really fun, but it was the first time somebody told me, they literally said, "You are not an artist here. You are a performer."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Hmm.

Tamara Jade: "Sing the same show every night." And it was soul crushing.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Hmm.

Tamara Jade: But, you know, I need that money type thing. So I did it, and then I, I said I did not... I needed a break.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: So I became a teacher. I became a special education teacher. It started as substitute teaching from, like, a family friend who was the HR director, a former lawyer-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: Who was just like, "I just need a regular job 'cause I had a baby." So she was the HR director at a charter school, and so I was substitute teaching. And one of my friends at that time was applying for, uh, the Capital Teacher Residency with KIPP Charter Network in DC.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, of course, KIPP schools.

Student: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And she was like, "You should apply for this." And I just happened to check the special education box. It wasn't, like, a desire per se. Right. But it was like, "I could do that. I, I'm cool with bad kids," you know? I had no idea what I was signing up for. And so when I went through the interview process, the principal who ended up hiring me, Donnie Tingsum, he saw my resume. He said, "You graduated from Oberlin in 2012. Why am I just meeting you in 2014?" Mm. I was like, "Well, I did some, like, touring overseas." Yeah. And he pushed my resume away. He said, "I wanna hear about that."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: "I... You have more to offer this, these students from your life experience-"

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: "Than having a degree in education." And so he hired me to be a special education teacher. Wow. He was like, "This is going to be hard."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: "Okay? But what I want you to know is if you become a good special education teacher, that means you're a good teacher. 'Cause anything that's good for the special education community is good for everybody."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: And so, um, I took it very seriously. I didn't stop singing, but-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Something that you should know, and I haven't, I haven't even talked about this, I auditioned for Porgy and Bess in Mexico at the same time that I interviewed for that job.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Wow.

Tamara Jade: And I asked him if I could do it, and he was like, "If you do that, you'd be- can't hire you." So I said to myself, "This will be the last time I turn down what I really want for something that I kind of want."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: And I taught for three years faithfully.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yep.

Tamara Jade: And then I went to see The Color Purple on Broadway.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes.

Tamara Jade: And with... That was with, um, Cynthia Erivo.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Erivo, okay.

Tamara Jade: Danielle Brooks.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, of course.

Tamara Jade: And Jennifer Hudson.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: One of her first, I mean, her Broadway debut, I think.

Tamara Jade: Yes. Yeah, that's right. It was at the same time that she was doing, uh, Orange Is the New Black.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Which premiered... N- Netflix and all that was new-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: When I was in... I used to... It was my fifth year. I used to come home and watch Netflix. Okay. Watch Orange Is the New Black because everybody was like, "You look just like that girl." So that's where I started to dream about what I could do. I'm like, "Well, if she could do that, I could do that."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: So I went to see The Color Purple, and it changed my life. My mom was like, "You look just like that girl." And when your mama tell you you look like somebody-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Then you look like the, the person. Um, so I decided... I went back home.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And that Monday I had my meeting with my vice principal, my contract renewal. Yeah. And they told me I was doing a great job, and they said, "Do you have any questions?" And I was like, "No, but I'm not gonna come back next year."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: And she said, "I'm required from KIPP to ask you is there anything we can do to keep you?" I said, "You can double my salary." And she said, "We cannot do that at this time." And I said, "Okay, well then, no." And she said, "Okay, well, I'm gonna take my supervisor hat off and put my friend hat on. I'm so happy for you." Mm. "This is right. You're supposed to do this. You're supposed to go to New York. You're a star, and I believe everything you learned from this journey as a teacher will help you."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You know what I love about that? The, that supportive person that encourages-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You when you're stepping out on faith.

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Um, did you have anything booked? I mean, what-

Tamara Jade: No.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So you-

Tamara Jade: Absolutely not.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And, and, and so, so you're just-

Tamara Jade: Booked.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Just-

Tamara Jade: No, I had one of my closest friends from Oberlin. Okay. Rebecca Hargrove, also class of 2012. She told me, "If you come to New York, I will introduce you to everybody I know. I will help you as much as I can," and she did. Everybody did. Everybody-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So let's talk about that. So you show up in New York.

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm, with $3,000.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Um, I was gonna ask you how much you- I was gonna ask you how much you had in the account. $3,000. $3,000.

Tamara Jade: That is not enough, everybody.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That wasn't enough in 2016, and it ain't enough now.

Tamara Jade: And it's not now.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay, so you show up with $3,000.

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And you're like, what, what do you do next? I mean, you show up. You, you know you have talent. You know you have some skills to offer. You have a friend, at least one friend-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Who is, what, putting you up? You're-

Tamara Jade: No, she just was, like, introducing me to people. "My friend can really sing. You need to hear her. My friend can really sing. You need to hear her."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay, okay, 'cause I know there's a question in here about how you network at some point. Mm-hmm. 'Cause we're gonna get to student questions quick. Um, 'cause I know you all wanna ask questions. You show up. You got $3,000. Um, there'll be... There's some seniors that are graduating here right now that are maybe headed to New York, hopefully with more than $3,000 since Tamara said the-

Tamara Jade: Yes, please go-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Girls with more than $3,000 ... that's not enough.

Tamara Jade: It's not enough.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay, so what do we do?

Tamara Jade: Uh, so I actually, that was my first time auditioning for The Voice. The time you guys saw me-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Oh, okay.

Tamara Jade: Was my third time.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And I knew they was tripping.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You knew they didn't have it right.

Tamara Jade: I knew they was tripping.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And even y'all don't have it right.

Tamara Jade: I know what I do and what I'm supposed to be doing.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Y'all don't know. Um, so I came to New York, had a failed audition for The Voice. Okay. They told me it sounded like I was screaming, and I'm like, "You..." But that was casting. That wasn't an audition anymore, right? Okay. That it's an audition, but it's-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Not an audition.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: It's casting.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And so felt very low, was not sure what I was gonna do.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: For the first three months, I took whatever jobs I could. Um, I-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So name us some quick ones then.

Tamara Jade: So Uber Eats was new. Okay. I was handing out flyers in Dumbo for Uber Eats.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: I polished silver for a wedding company. Companies?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: Um, and I remember looking at the band like, "I'm supposed to be up there. I'm not supposed to be-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: Down here."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Oh, wow.

Tamara Jade: And I had a friend who, he was like, "So what are you doing for money?" And I told him. He said, "Why are you doing that?" I said, "'Cause I need money." He said, "Did you come here to do that?" And I said-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Hm.

Tamara Jade: "No, but I need money." And he's like, "You'd be better off teaching. You'd be better off doing anything. Stay in the craft." Mm-hmm. So he gave me a bunch of his dance, uh, people-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: To give voice lessons to 'cause they couldn't sing.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: Okay.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So- So you were helping people out?

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You started helping people out.

Tamara Jade: Um, and I booked my first show within 90 days, and after that I didn't have to do anything that was not related to singing, dancing, acting, entertainment.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, let's give some applause to that right there. 'Cause that-

Tamara Jade: Thank you.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: But that's yeah, we're gonna talk about the hustle and the grind of it-

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right? Because that's part of it. It is. And, um, and sometimes I think, you know, when I talk to... So Oberlin has about, uh, 1,000 students who are in sort of creative space, right? We have a conservatory. Mm-hmm. You know, 500 or 600 students there. We have students who are in the practicing arts, so cinema studies, um, theater, dance, um, uh, music theater. And so we have about 1,000 students who are in this creative space. Mm-hmm. And I think sometimes there's a little bit of nervousness about what the grind looks like. So, um, you know, before we sort of get to The Voice, tell me a little bit about how the grind feels. Like...

Tamara Jade: Like a grind.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Like a grind.

Tamara Jade: You know, there's times when it's fun, especially when you have community.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And I will say my, my friends from Oberlin are still my closest friends. We still have the same core friend group. Um, and so that definitely makes life better when it's... I remember days when I was definitely going to eat the rice and beans because that's what I had. Yeah. And then a friend calls and says, "Uh, Boston Market got a special on a family deal." And I'm like, "Ooh, I ain't got no money." They're like, "Oh, no worries, I already bought it and I'm on my way to your house." So there's those moments that, that definitely make all the failed auditions. I actually, so I did my Rainey's Black Bottom my freshman year here. Yeah. And so I thought that I could go audition. I already did that.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: I can go audition in New Jersey for that in real life. Yep. Girl, you are 20 so- you know, you will not be auditioning for that, right? So a bunch of different failed auditions and realizing in that moment, again, I did not come here to ask permission. I didn't come to New York City to ask permission.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: So I need to look for opportunities to perform, and that's when I pivoted to doing open mics and, like, competitions-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And stuff like that where I could be seen on stage and not seen in a room by people who were gatekeeping. Gatekeepers.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You know? And keeping... Yeah, that's right.

Tamara Jade: So.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And you, um, so how quickly did you learn that? That this is about being seen, that I'm gonna take, um, maybe more ownership over-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: How my career happens-

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Because I'm gonna choose spaces and places that help for me. How long did it take you to figure that out?

Tamara Jade: Those 90 days. Yeah. That's why I pivoted and it, and it worked the way it did. I'm very, like, if it ain't working, let's, let's... If it's broke, fix it.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: You know? Um, and so when I, I realized I was doing these auditions, and it's, it costs money to get to auditions, right?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Like, I'm going on a train, I got to eat something.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: You know, these things cost money. And so it's like, okay, cost benefit analysis. I don't have to do this. I have a degree already.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: So I already got the permission and the validation from these people here. So I should be able to do this here. Let me find the spaces that want what I do.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: And so that was very... That, that took me to the open mics in Harlem. Right. And at the time Sugar Bar was still a thing. Okay.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, of course.

Tamara Jade: Um, and that sent me to go be with the people who do what I wanted to do at that time, which w- took me away from opera, I will say. Yeah. But what that did for me, the Black operatic community started to give me their gigs that were non-operatic because they didn't want to do them. So if there was a gospel call-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: They all slid them to me.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: R&B calls, background gigs, they all slid them to me. Yeah. And if there was stuff that was hybrid, 'cause I could do the classical stuff too. Right. So call me for that too, but I don't wanna do that. Yeah. So call me for the stuff you know I wanna do. Um, yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So would you, would you describe sort of the, you know, you're going, you are hustling, you're grinding, you're showing up, you're doing, I'm assuming you're doing weddings. You're doing whatev-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Whatever it is that works. Um, how long before you get The Voice? This kind of explosive moment.

Tamara Jade: Four years. So I got to New York in 2016. Uh, I was... In 2017, I performed at 66 weddings. Wow. Every weekend I would change at Dunkin' Donuts.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Stop it. Stop it.

Tamara Jade: Yes. I had to take the train to, and then-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Wait a minute. You're in the bathroom of Dunkin' Donuts...

Tamara Jade: Changing into a gown because we couldn't show up in our street clothes to them people wedding. You couldn't. I did a c- first couple of times, and the band leader was like-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Um, no...

Tamara Jade: "Please show up here like you are here for something." So I would take the train to the bus in Midtown, and take the bus into New Jersey, and then at the Dunkin' Donuts is where I would change and meet my band mate. Yeah. Who would then drive to the gig, and then come back and do it all in reverse. And that was my Saturday night. But if I did two-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Do you mind, do you mind, uh, telling the students how much you got paid for those weddings?

Tamara Jade: That, so I started at $650.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: Which was actually higher than my colleagues were starting at because I had a degree in music. That actually created some-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Hey, y'all hear that?

Tamara Jade: That actually created some tension among my colleagues.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Uh-

Tamara Jade: I have a degree. Uh-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, I get paid ... I get paid a little bit more, people.

Tamara Jade: Yeah. And she was a classical pianist, so she was very familiar with Oberlin specifically. Yeah. That name carries weight, uh, just like every other, uh, conservatory, more than some. Um, so I got to start out at 650. The next band I got to 850.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And now it's like I don't leave my house for less than four figures because g- y'all in your 20s that don't have real bills, you do that. But, you know, now-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: But the rent's gotta be paid...

Tamara Jade: It's, yeah. Life-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Bills-

Tamara Jade: Gotta be paid. But at that time, 650, if I did a s- a Friday and a Saturday gig, my bills were paid for the month.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay. So you knew that if you could get one weekend gig-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That was gonna pay the bills.

Tamara Jade: Yeah, and that was just one thing. Yeah. That, that left room now to go do the workshops that were paying $500 a week.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: You know, which is before taxes, by the way. Yeah. Okay. Which is nothing, right? But that allows me to be able to do that without having a attitude.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes.

Tamara Jade: 'Cause you have a attitude when you ain't got no money. You got a attitude when you're hungry at work. That's a real thing, right? No, I...

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Listen.

Tamara Jade: So I was able to go do those things. My very first show was at the Apollo.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Nice.

Tamara Jade: And it was a new, relatively new work, but it was a all... That show was everybody I needed to know in New York City for the rest of my time there.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Love it.

Tamara Jade: Everybody in that room has been-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Helpful, and we're all still very close. We all still love each other. Um, yeah. Yeah. So.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So I... We're gonna get to student questions, but I just wanna make sure that... So after four years, let's just walk people a little bit through The Voice experience. Okay. 'Cause it's so significant, and it, it, it exploded your career in lots of ways. Mm-hmm. And I assume led to Black Lady Sketch comedy, led to... Did it lead to Doja Cat? Obviously John Legend, it led to that.

Tamara Jade: Yes and no.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: So those people were not aware of The Voice.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: But it gave me visibility to build fan bases and stuff like that. So the time you guys saw me was the third time I auditioned for The Voice.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: After the s- so the second-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Time they got it wrong again.

Tamara Jade: They got it wrong again. And I said to myself, "I'm not going to another audition." Hmm. "If they want me, they gotta watch a video. I'm not doing this again."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay, so you're not gonna physically-

Tamara Jade: And so-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Go down there and go through the line and do all that stuff. No.

Tamara Jade: Yeah. So the third time there was a Black producer this time who-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Interesting. Okay.

Tamara Jade: Would not take no for an answer. Yeah. He was like, "I'm going to get you across this finish line."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah. I think someone here in the room has a question about being a Black woman in this industry. Okay. Yeah. So we'll get to that.

Tamara Jade: That's important.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Um, and he said, "We're gonna do this together. Send me 10 videos. Don't record anything new. Send me 10 videos." 'Cause I was al- I already had videos online. Yeah. And so he said, "We're gonna submit this, this, and this, and then I want you to make a video answering these questions." And my video's still on YouTube actually. The video was like, "Why should we pick you?" And I remember being so bold. I said, "You sh-" I looked dead in the camera, I said, "You should pick me because it's time for you to pick a person like me." Mm. And I look just like that, like, "And you know what that means." Um, and this was, it happened to be the pandemic this time.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And so 2019, I was talking with them behind the scenes as I was starting to book Lizzo-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And Cory Henry, and touring with him. Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Remember, you know, I don't know if you guys know this, but Lizzo came to Solarity here.

Tamara Jade: Oh, really?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Before, yes, before she got big.

Tamara Jade: Yeah, that happens. Kendrick Lamar was here-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: When I was a-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: A student.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So just so you know.

Tamara Jade: Yeah. It's a thing.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: It's a thing.

Tamara Jade: People come here and blow up, she way.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: But so bef-

Tamara Jade: Yeah, Lizzo. So yes, uh, 2019 I booked Lizzo with the VMAs, and then that same night is how the, the wheels got turning to book Cory Henry's tour. And so in March I was doing a Asian tour. We did, uh, the Philippines, Jakarta, Indonesia. Actually ran into my colleague from here in Jakarta. She was doing a project there.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And so yes, we out here. Um, and Tokyo. The, our last shows were Tokyo in the Blue Note, and we got to Tokyo and everything was, like, desolate. Yeah. If anybody was on the street, they had a mask on, and they were like, "Guys, just so you know, Tokyo never looks like this. Something is coming."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes.

Tamara Jade: And so I got back home in March 2020. The world shut down.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes.

Tamara Jade: But remember, I was already talking to The Voice. So by June they email and they say, "Hey, we're gonna fast track everything. We're not doing the normal process." 'Cause the second time I went all the way to LA and got a rejection.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: There's pre-auditions that-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes.

Tamara Jade: You don't see. And so this time they said, "We skipping all that. We going straight to the psych evaluation." Y'all, there was 200 people on that call. After that psych evaluation, it was 85. People are crazy, okay? So, um, they fast-tracked everything, and they were like, "If you're willing to come," and this was July, late June, July-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: "Then we want you." And so that's how The Voice started.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Started, yeah.

Tamara Jade: Um, and it was very stressful. Yes. We were tested three or four times a week, and this was back with the, um-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah ... terrible testing.

Tamara Jade: So you're getting-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: COVID testing-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And you're getting the nose swipes, and you're doing-

Tamara Jade: No, the throat swabs.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Oh, the throat swipes.

Tamara Jade: Okay. Terrible. Yeah. Awful. Uh, also had to do my own glam, okay? So I did my own hair and makeup on The Voice. I need y'all to know that. Um, but yeah, it was hard. But, like, we couldn't even hug the coaches. We couldn't touch each other.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes.

Tamara Jade: We had to quarantine. But it, you don't get to tell God, the universe, when the thing you're asking for comes.

Student 2: Amen.

Tamara Jade: You just get to accept or deny. So I could have stayed home. I could have said, "This is not safe enough."

Student 2: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: I need to whatever, but I took the risk. I risked my life to be on The Voice.

Student 2: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Um, and it worked out. That's right. And John Legend, he told me our very last, uh, when we finally did get to hug when I, um, left, he said, "I wanna keep working with you." And I just believe that he didn't say, he wouldn't say that if he didn't mean it.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's right.

Tamara Jade: So I made sure I kept in touch. I always asked. I had very specific asks of him because that's a busy, wealthy man.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: So if I'm gonna ask for something, let me be very specific about what I need.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And he always says yes. I literally just asked him for a reference last week, and he said yes. He did my Grammy recommendation to be a part of the voting Grammy member.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes. That's right.

Tamara Jade: Like, there's never... I, I pull up on him in LA and l- play my music. He actually gave me a punch-up for one of my hooks, and I went back in and re-recorded it. So yeah, like, he's been great.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I hope y'all are listening and keeping... W- we're gonna, we're gonna, yeah, have this uploaded so y'all can see this again, 'cause Tamara's giving you little nuggets all the way through here. Yeah. Keep in touch. Someone of that stature, be clear about what you want. Mm-hmm. And be, you know, dedicated to that so they can help you. Um, and then making sure that you're reaching out consistently-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So that they know what you are thinking about. Like, all of those things are things that you just wanna make sure we're keeping track of-

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Of what you need to do. So I'm gonna turn it over to the students. But, um, I guess the last thing I wanted to say, um, and ask you about, because you and I talked about this and I think one of the reasons why you wanted to come back is just talk a little bit about social media.

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And, and when we were talking about this, y'all will... I want you to tell the story about the, the video that you did-

Tamara Jade: The Walmart?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: The Walmart video-

Tamara Jade: Okay.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That you did. Um, you know, in the kind of the early stages of social media-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Becoming so powerful. Uh, but maybe what you want our students to know about the kind of brand-building process through social media. So talk about Walmart, 'cause when she said this, I'm like, "What?"

Tamara Jade: Yeah. So my very first sketch, viral sketch video was done at this Walmart in Oberlin.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Y'all know that Walmart, right?

Tamara Jade: Yeah, at like 2:00... But, so Walmart was new when I ca- I think maybe the year before it started. Okay. I came in 2007, so it was-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Really new.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And it was, like, something to do, like, go walk around Walmart-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: At 2:00 AM. Now, don't make people feel like that you can't do anything here at Oberlin but walk around Walmart.

Tamara Jade: Okay. Back in 2007, '8, '9, '10, '11, '12-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's all we did ... there was-

Tamara Jade: Nothing else to do but go to Walmart or Two Clubs in Mid-Cleveland.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay. We've gotten a little bit more sophisticated since then, right? Yes. Um-

Tamara Jade: We have a Thai restaurant and some other things. Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: We didn't have all that.

Tamara Jade: Okay. But, but-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: We didn't have all that ... but at that time, Walmart was the hot spot.

Tamara Jade: It was the thing to do. Okay. Okay. And so I had this idea. I saw friends back home do this video called The Power of Shout where they would, like, spray Shout, uh-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Do y'all know Shout? The, the-

Tamara Jade: The laundry thing ... detergent, the laundry-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Detergent?

Tamara Jade: Okay. They would spray that on each other and start shouting. And so I was like, "I wanna make a part two," and punched it up and everything. And me and my friends, I basically told them what I wanted them to do. One of them did, like, a testimony, like, "I couldn't move my arms or my legs before this. But now..." And then you spray her, and she start running around. Um, it's just... Yeah, it was just foolishness at 2:00 AM, but that was, like, my first viral moment back in 2009, I think I was here. And I just remember, like, being very focused on editing. I edited, and time was passing, and I didn't care. Yeah. Like, I remember being so able to laser beam focus on this vision that I had. I knew, I knew what it looked like at the end. Yeah. So I had to keep chipping away until it became that.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah. So what do you think, you know, if you were saying to students about kind of building the brand and your f- your commitment to your social media platform right now-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You know, what strategies are you using in order to make that be a part of how your presence is felt?

Tamara Jade: Uh, honestly, a lot of what I learned in the sociology department here, specifically the social psychology class with Gregor Mattson, I use a lot. Um, and that is just kind of like how we relate to each other. So, like, very small things, like I don't post flyers too much on my timeline. If I do, they'll grab your attention because there's no other flyers. So, like, Lincoln Center, I posted that flyer, right?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes, that's right.

Tamara Jade: But that's-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Such a significant presence-

Tamara Jade: Yeah ... you won't be knowing about that. But I don't post flyers because our eyes gaze over flyers. Um, it is much more effective to post a video, um, and maybe sometimes not even talking about the thing, just a video of you doing the thing, and then in the caption saying what it is. Yeah. And things like that. Um, I also, uh, fan building and community building is something I learned from social media, and I did that a lot in the comments. Being present in, uh, comments of other content has been a really great way to build community. Interesting, yes. 'Cause you get to talk to people.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: Um, it's not just-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So you are engaging with your fan base there. Yes. Yes. Spending time-

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Having conversations with them.

Tamara Jade: Yes, I try to respond. When I post something, I mean, today's not a good example of this, but within 30 minutes, um, I try to... If I'm gonna post something, I try to be available for the next 15 to 30 minutes to pop back in, comment back to people, even if it's just heart emojis. Yeah. Because that, uh, picks the algorithm up. It puts you on the for you page a little bit faster. I also now know, based on my audience, what's gonna make them laugh or not. I have my niches, and it's taken this amount of time. It's not something I've always known. It- I've only become brave in the last, like, five years about, like, church-related comedy.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Interesting.

Tamara Jade: That was something I always felt was blasphemous.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: So I just do that with my friends. But then I saw people like KevOnStage doing it.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes, absolutely.

Tamara Jade: A huge presence. And I started doing it, and then he found me doing it, and he's like, "We're the same person."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's right. Yeah, I see you all linked up on I-

Tamara Jade: On Instagram. Yeah. I just texted him the other night because I was nervous before Lincoln Center. I hadn't gotten nervous like that in a long time. I don't even remember ever feeling nervous like that. And I was like, "Do you still get nervous?" He's like, "Yeah, when it's a new project that I've created, absolutely."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: "I'm nervous right now for my Grief Sucks show."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: So, you know, just that, being brave to put things out that, like, I was told were relatively unprofessional.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Interesting.

Tamara Jade: Um, and having t- you know, like even, Ms.- we were laughing yesterday. Ms. Rosen used to say, like, she didn't like dresses above the knee on stage. Right. She's like, "Knees are ugly on stage." "And then we can just look straight up your dress," right? And at the time it was like, "Oh, you're just being old." And now I'm like, "Now why, girl? That... I know she should've wore a longer dress on that stage." But, like, this whole, this professionalism, this, uh, lens of what that looks like gets seared into your brain. And then I had to do all this unlearning, and I realized for me, when I show up just plain Jane, no... You remember the HBCU video?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's right. That's right.

Tamara Jade: I was just on my couch scrolling through, looking at everybody having a blast at FAMU. Yeah. Eating ribs. And I made that video on my couch. Right. You know? Um, and I realized, oh, people actually like me better when I'm just myself. Like, they like the made-up version, too, but that's aspirational. Yeah. This is inspirational.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Erica.

Tamara Jade: So, um, yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Well, Travis, I want you to come up and ask your question. Travis- Come on, Travis. Travis is, um, Travis is one of the producers on this show. Yes. Um, just so you know. Travis, ask your question.

Student 3: Um, so my question for you is when it comes to collaboration, how do you decide and what factors go into who you collaborate with, both artistically and in terms of management?

Tamara Jade: Yes. So first of all, can I be myself with you? Whether it is musically or on the management side, c- do I have to censor myself? Can I just say what's on my mind? Um, and then also, like, do we do the same thing? Do I, um, am I inspired by what you do? Are you inspired by what I do? Um, one of my favorite collaborators, Revel Day, we write together a lot. I found him on a television show because his music was playing, and I Shazamed it, and I found him on Instagram and saw, like, he was just a regular person like me. He wasn't necessarily a big artist, and I DM'd him to collaborate, and it took a little while for him to get back to me because he was starstruck. Fricking. Mm-hmm. He was like, "Oh my God, you were on The Voice," and I'm like, "Okay, and? Like, can we write now?" Um, and so he responded, and we've been making music together, and we just get each other. He understands, and he's inspired by my voice. That's another thing for me when I wanna work with other writers and producers. It's important that they be inspired by me. So my performance of Crazy on The Voice-

Student 2: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: Was John Legend's idea. I didn't ask to, that was one of the only songs I didn't ask to sing. And I asked him one day, I said, "Why, how did you, why that?" He said, "I dreamt it." And so I said, "Well, I want people who dream about me." Henceforth. Um, and again, the answers to your questions will, are not for mass appeal. They're not casting my net wide at, by any stretch of the imagination. They are very specific, and that means that I don't always work with everybody. It, I won't say that it limits me. I think it focuses me, and it kind of, I skip the, "Okay, well I just wasted four hours in that studio session with somebody who..." You know, I go straight to who makes sense. And so my current manager now is a Black woman. I'm very honest with her. You heard me talking to her before this. Yeah. Yes. And it's like, she's like, "Okay, well you didn't send me those dates before." And I'm like, "Yeah, girl, because they waited three weeks and I booked other things now." So, you know. But for me, if I can't be myself with you, thank you so much.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Thank you.

Tamara Jade: We, we decided to go another direction. Right? Totally. Well, that's basically, I would say the short answer is can I be myself with you? And two, do you have something more to offer than I already have? Do you have relationships that I don't have? Maybe you have producers and casting directors, but I got the celebrity friends. So if we put that together, then we can really move the needle.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Then we get something. So. Yeah.

Student 3: Thanks, Travis. Awesome. Thank you.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You're welcome. So no, Guadalupe, you're, you're right there, so the audience can see you. Hi. Um, is asking a question about when the future feels uncertain. I don't know if any of y'all are feeling-

Tamara Jade: Like right now?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Well, if the future feels uncertain, how do you keep taking risk when there isn't a clear roadmap?

Tamara Jade: For me, um- I ask myself what I have to lose. So right now I'm in a season, I'm transitioning back from LA to the East Coast.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's right.

Tamara Jade: In full transparency, I'm staying with family. I'm the baby of my family. Little sister Kara, "Hey, can I come live with you till I find my feet?" And the answer is yes. Yes. Of course. Um, so I'm, right now I'm in a big risk-taking season, 'cause I'm not gambling rent money, right? Like, it's, I can do a little bit more right now. Yeah. I can put myself out there. Lincoln Center paid me, but I absolutely spent every pedy- penny of that budget on everybody else because I needed the show to be exactly what it wanted to be. I did four wardrobe changes, and I needed... I had to drive up to LA and drive the people with me, so I had to rent a car. Yeah. You know, these things, uh, they add up, right? Yeah, they cost money. The, the Amex is, is ran out. Yeah. Right? But why wouldn't I bet on myself right now?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Amen.

Tamara Jade: Why wouldn't I? I've done everything with the people. I done been a comedic sidekick.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: I done been a background singer to A-listers. Yeah. Why wouldn't I take a chance and gamble on myself right now? 'Cause what happens? If it fails, I go back to singing with other people. Okay.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: I go back to making thousands of dollars-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: A week and traveling overseas. Yeah. Oh, terrible, right? Yeah. So for me it's like, what do I have to lose right now? Yeah. I don't have anything to lose.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: It almost sounds like you're, you are in the moments of uncertainty, like leaning in more.

Tamara Jade: I am. And also taking, I don't know if Justin's here, but we talked about this when I came to LA, strategic risks. Yeah. So LA was a very strategic risk for me. I accepted a six-figure contract with no money, and the six figures didn't start till four months after I got there.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: So I was struggling when I got to LA.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah. This is where Black ladies get-

Tamara Jade: Yes. I was on... I was recording, shooting for HBO, sleeping on an air mattress.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And because it was COVID, we had to drive to work. We were not allowed to ride share. So I had to now rent cars-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Oh, God...

Tamara Jade: And move across the country. The savings was gone. Gone, yeah. And this time wasn't 3,000. It was at least, like, 15 I had saved. Yeah, yeah. And I, that should be more than enough, right? Yeah. Like, no, absolutely not. Yeah. That went quickly. Mm. It absolutely was worth the risk.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Of course.

Tamara Jade: Yes. Absolutely worth the risk. And I have mentors, I have relationships with people like Justin and Latonya that I could be like, "It's so hard. Everything is so hard." And they're like, "I know. Eat your burger." You know? So, um, yeah. Yeah. Strategic risks. I think the, especially when the economy is as bad as it is.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: What do you have to lose? Everybody's broke. Everybody's broke. The rich people, the billionaires are down to their last billions. So why not try? Why not try? Why not? And then also create, create, create. You can create the real- I created this reality. That's right. This started in my head. That's right. I DM'd you. That's right. And the rest is history, right? So-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, we're all here because she said, "Hey, I wanna do this for students."

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And, um, and in our conversation we're like, "Yeah, let's do it." Yeah. And so we're here because you said, "Hey, let's, let's do this."

Tamara Jade: Yeah. Creating.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Creating.

Tamara Jade: Create the reality that you want. And it starts with the habits of creativity. Whether... I, I went through Season One day where I was like, "I gotta create something every day." So if it was like a rap verse, a poem, a song, whatever-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: I just forced myself to make something.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Every day.

Tamara Jade: I made something creative. Draw a picture. Yeah. Make something. Yeah. Get something-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Out of your head. It's so interesting that you say that and, uh, Sarah, you can come on up and, and get ready for your question. But, um, you know, I've been, I've talked to a lot of creators here at Oberlin, and one of the, uh... We only have 20 minutes, guys, so we're gonna go fast through these. I know. Sorry. I talk long. Um, but, uh-

Tamara Jade: We should do two hours.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's right. One of, one of the things I will say about the Obie creatives that I have talked to over the last couple of years, they all have this habit of s- creating something every day. Like, everybody is like-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That, on that thing. Um, and something about that, putting that creative piece into a habit, has produced good results.

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So I'll let you ask your question. Um, class of 2028. Tamar in economics?

Tamara Jade: All right.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So there it is. Good-

Tamara Jade: Combination.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Student 2: Yeah. Um, can you please describe your music creative process? Like, if you work with, let's say music producers, how do you go about establishing what you wanna say as an artist in your work?

Another, yeah.

Tamara Jade: Oh, so that has evolved recently. I've realized that I need musicians. Um, in LA I work with a lot of producers, and they are not... Producers are not always musicians. And what does that mean? That means, "Can you change these chords right here?" I cannot, 'cause I do not play an instrument, right? Oh, gosh. That's the difference. Yeah. So for me, I realize that, like, produc- producers who are also musicians are very important to me. Does that mean I don't work with...? No, that doesn't mean that. It just means, like, right now that's what I'm prioritizing because it's inside of us, so we need to be able to, like, communicate with this musical language. So that's very important to me, a high level of musicianship. Um, creativity, uh, innovation. I'm inspired by the past, but, like, how do we then build on that? How do we evolve from that? The song I sang last night is a jazz standard by Shirley Horn, but I heard Patti LaBelle do it first. Mm. And so then I put my spin on it, and it has a whole different identity now that's my version. So people who also move like that, who are innovative and who want to see new things, but still wanna, like, feel something, and it's not just like, "I'm doing this because nobody's done it before." It's like, "I'm doing this and nobody has done it before, and I'm scared, but I feel like I'm supposed to do it." And that's who I'm, like, attracted to. And, um, yeah, just people... I also like people who, like, read still, like smart people. Yeah. I, I-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I love how she said that. Read still.

Tamara Jade: You know? Well, because like-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Like it's, it's a lost, it's a lost art form, right?

Tamara Jade: The AI really be thinking for us. I, I mean, I don't even be writing emails sometimes no more. Huh. And I'm like, I have to stop myself and, like, make myself think, you know? Yeah. Use my brain again. So, like, people who actively, like, are still on that side too-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And want to think and want to, like, feel still and are not trying to turn a blind eye to what's happening outside of the walls that you're in. Yeah. So.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Thanks, Sara. Yes. We appreciate. Jay, come on up and, and ask your question because I know that-

Tamara Jade: Come on, Jay.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You know, one of... Yeah. You know, one, one of the things that we talk about a lot here is that different types of people have different types of experience in the industry.

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So we'll let you ask your question.

Student 4: Yeah. Hearing about your path has been really enlightening and reaffirming.

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Student 4: Um, and so with that, I just wanted to hear more about how being a Black woman in the industry has influenced how you navigate certain opportunities and challenges that you've experienced along the way.

Tamara Jade: Yeah. Okay. So yesterday I was sitting in the auditorium, and I looked around and said, "Huh, the only Black person again. It's been a while since that happened." Yeah. Uh, but for me, I remember walking down the street with my best friend in, like, 2016 or 2017, and I looked at him and I said, "If I only do Black projects for the rest of my career, I'm okay with that." And he said, "But that's so limiting, Tam. Like, what about da da da da da?" Yeah. And I said, "I hear you, but I'm just not fulfilled when I'm not telling stories about people that look like me."

Student 4: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: Um, and again, that could be limiting if that's how you look at it, glass half empty, glass half full. But for me, I am not fulfilled being the only Black person in the space. I feel lonely. I feel scared. I feel unsafe. So it's important for me to have other people who look like me. I mean, now since then, have I done other things that are... Yeah, 'cause baby, people be having money, and they don't always look like me, and we need that sometimes, right? So I, I've since been able to evolve that, but being the only, I don't like that. I don't take on projects where I'm the token. Mm-hmm. I don't take on projects where I have to represent an entire race of people. I... Yeah, no. And then I also- Build relationships with other Black women. Um, when I went to New York, I was very adamant about being a student. Um-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: At, at first I was beating up on myself. I'm like, "How are these women singing like this?" But then I talked to them, I'm like, "Oh, you're 10 years older than me. Okay, cool." Yeah. Right? But then, uh, can we, can I take you to lunch and, and pick your brain? And tell me everything you sang. And so let me start learning these roles because that's probably what I'll get called for. I had a friend who gave me the game-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Did y'all hear that? Continue to be a student, right?

Tamara Jade: Oh, yeah. For forever.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Continue to be a student.

Tamara Jade: Forever. Latonya taught me a new word today. And she said, "I just feel this." And I said, "What? You feel what?"

Carmen Twillie Ambar: What that mean?

Tamara Jade: Right? So, like, always a student, and not being afraid to, um, ask, ask for help, but also add value. I've had to learn, like, when you come... Like, of course John Legend has a lot to offer, right? But if I come to you like, "Can I offer this to you?" So in the strike, I was broke and-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah. So one of the things y'all should know is that-

Tamara Jade: Oh.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: After w- when, when Tamara did HBO and was there, came for a contract. Great. Got the job. With a show. Great. Got a job. Great. And then what happened?

Tamara Jade: Strike. Now we, nobody can work. Writers and actors strike. So we all sat down, right? And this is what I c- I came here for these terrible contracts. What do you mean we're not doing this anymore? And so I went back to music. I text John Legend and I said, "I s- I see you're doing something with the choir at the Hollywood Bowl. Can I be in the choir?" And he was like, "That would be great," right? Because now at least there's one person in the choir that he knows, so he knows like, all right, it, it probably won't suck. Because I don't know who my people are hiring. Yeah. Right? I'm just, I told my team I want a choir in Los Angeles, and they'll take, uh, care of getting me a choir, but he's not involved in booking the choir. But at least I'm coming in and he knows like, okay, good, you, you got... You know? So just staying connected to people who said they wanna help, and also younger. Like there's a girl, Rachel Simweb, that I met at, uh, camp.

Student 2: Yes.

Tamara Jade: Uh, yes, exactly. Uh, she was one of LaTanya's, uh, students. And that girl was just special. I mean, at 17, 18, she's just... The way you felt when Whitney Houston sang was the way you feel when this girl sings.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Oh, wow.

Tamara Jade: And also just like being available to her too. Whenever you need me, girl, I'm here. If you need, you know. Yeah. And just being in a community of other Black women, and I cannot say that there has not been people who have disappointed me. Absolutely happens. But if for every one, there's five more that are there to pick me up too, and that are there to say, "I see you. I saw that. Are you good? I heard what she said to you. Are you good?" Mm-hmm. You know? So just the bravery to be in community with other people. When I saw you, I've been following you before you followed me, honey. I was like, oh, it's up. You know? Um, and just supportive, being supportive of whatever initiatives or missions, like st- trying to stay connected, but like staying connected to my people has been beneficial. And then being very specific about what I enjoy doing. I could say that I only wanted to do Bla- Black projects 'cause I did a bunch of, uh, non-Black ones. And so I was like, "I don't like how I felt there, and I like how I feel here." So also taking inventory. Um, I think it's important to go back, debrief after everything you do, and decide what you enjoyed about it. What do I wanna keep doing? What could I kinda do, maybe not? What could I live without, and what do I absolutely not wanna do again?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Um.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I think that's an important, and, and thank you so much. Yes. And Ava, come on up for your question. But I think what's al- really important about that, Tamara, is just, you know, you're also using your experience in the moment-

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: To take a moment to learn from it, right?

Tamara Jade: Absolutely.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Because if you don't stop for a moment and say, "What did I value about this? What didn't I value about this?" Mm-hmm. "What was that experience really like? I'm not quite sure I wanna do that again." 'Cause your, your own You're your own agent essentially, right?

Tamara Jade: Yes, I am.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So y- so you're the one that's having to decide, did this work? Did this not work? Yes. And you're doing that all the way through your creative process. So Ava's gonna do, and then we're gonna do some fast question rounds 'cause we probably have 10 minutes left. All right. But, um, Ava ask your question. Ava is a- I love your dress ... a voice major, and you have a BM. Yes. Are you double degree?

Student: I am. I have-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Student: My BA is in politics with a minor in law and society.

Tamara Jade: Excellent.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Student: Okay. Um, and I'm graduating this year.

Tamara Jade: Oh, right. Congratulations.

Student: So a big goal has been, thank you, has been trying to make friends with the audition room. Okay. Um, and my question is, do you have any red flags or green flags to share about your process in, like, the audition room?

Tamara Jade: Yes. I actually have a video on YouTube about auditioning. My goal for every audition is to walk out proud of what I left in the room. The, the goal for me, or the measure of success is not whether I book the gig or not, 'cause sometimes that has nothing to do with your talent or skill. But do I feel good about what I left in the room? And I will say, like, 85% of the time when that answer is yes, I also book the gig. Um, but Being, being pleased with that work because that's also a performance. It's also you getting to share, like, "This is me, and I'm just here having a good time, and you get to be here in w- in this room with me-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: While I'm having a good time."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I love that. You know? You get to be here with me.

Tamara Jade: Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I'm not auditioning for you. You're almost auditioning for me.

Tamara Jade: Yeah, I'm not here to ask permission. I'm already doing it. I'm already doing... There is nothing stopping anybody from going on the street corner and singing, right? So you don't need permission-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: To sing. You just are trying to do it in different places, and they sometimes have the keys to that. Um, and then also just, like, not putting all of your stake in that. Like I said, auditioning is a thing, but do you have opportunities to perform, too, that are already available to you? Even if it's at church, right? Like, making sure that as much as you're auditioning, you're also still performing. You can get to a season where you look up and you're only auditioning, and then-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: And you're wondering why you depressed. It's like, well, yeah, because 90 rejections just came through over the last three months. And you had nothing else to build confidence, and you didn't have any moments where you were just doing the thing. So I would say, one, being proud of what, the goal being, uh, to be proud of what you're leaving in the room at the audition, and then also performing just as much as you a- audition. D- don't ask for permission too much, you know, because the answer is yes sometimes, the answer is no sometimes. It had nothing to do with you. But sometimes, sometimes it's about, "Oh, we really liked her hair." Sometimes we, "She's the right height." A lot of times I'm not the right height for anything. I'm very sh- I've had to stand on so many apple boxes, guys. But I'm undeniable. Mm. Sometimes people want me for the job simply because they want to be in the room with me. They're like, "She seems so fun. We, we need her," right? Yeah. So just being, the more you're confident about who you are and what you have to offer, that will shine through, but if you're coming in there with the disposition of asking for permission, then you can be told no. But you can't tell me no when I'm undeniable, you know?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And I'm not asking for-

Tamara Jade: Your permission. And I'm not asking. I'm still gonna do-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: This when I leave here. Right. That's right. That's right.

Tamara Jade: Yes. Thanks, Ava. You're welcome.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So, um, we're gonna let Jay finish up with the last question, but we're gonna do some lightning rounds real quick. Okay. Um, how do you keep... This is from Ella. Um, how do you keep your voice healthy?

Tamara Jade: I could do better. But- Um, uh, sleeping.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Sleeping.

Tamara Jade: There is no tea you can drink, although I do love the Prince of Peace line of, uh, ginger crystals. But sleeping is really important, and water, just staying hydrated. Okay. Um, listening to your body.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yep.

Tamara Jade: And when it tells you to sit down, sit down.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Sit down. Okay. Um, how do you deal with self-doubt or comparison? This came from Janiah.

Tamara Jade: Uh, social media is very good about that, and I sometimes have to put my phone down. I find my- if I ever find myself, uh, being a hater-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: Me and my friends say that sometimes. We say, "This is putting me in a judgmental space." So I need to put this down. When you find your... I, so I still do. I think it happened last week. It depend on what my hormones is doing. But sometimes I find myself being like, "Now why she... I should be doing that. Now why they didn't call me for that? Why da, da, da, da?" Okay, you know what? Put that down. Go touch some grass.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: Go, go be with your family. Go play with my niece. Go play with my brother's dog.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Go be a human again. Um, that self-doubt to me is a bunch of lies.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm.

Tamara Jade: And it's a bu- 'cause social media is everybody putting their best-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Absolutely.

Tamara Jade: Out there all the time.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You're comparing your worst to their best-

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: On social media. Absolutely.

Tamara Jade: One of my last viral videos where I wasn't saying nothing where I, for Black History Month, where I was like, "Black people, mm, and mm." Yeah, it- What you don't know is my... I had gotten a call-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I saw that video.

Tamara Jade: Yeah ... I had gotten a call a week before that my father was declining-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Mm-hmm.

Tamara Jade: And we had to go. And so I was packing, and I needed a break because I literally remember being like, "I'm just putting a bunch of BS in this suitcase. I don't even... What am I packing for?" You know, right? Mm-hmm. I'm going to usher my father-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: To transition him to his next-

Tamara Jade: Out of life, right? So what type of clothes do you wear for that? Yeah. Right? You know, so I'm just throwing, and I needed a break. And I start scrolling through social media, and I see Don Lemon had been arrested.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That's right, yes.

Tamara Jade: And I'm like, "So we can't even talk no more." "We can't say nothing." And that's why I made that video-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Where I could never be incriminated because I didn't say anything, but I said a lot.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yes, yes.

Tamara Jade: Right? It was just- So, um, exactly. 'Cause- And we all knew what I said.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: We all knew what I said. Yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So, um, so you talked a little bit about this because you said that you just got a manager.

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Uh, so how did you find that manager?

Tamara Jade: Rebecca?

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, Rebecca, who she was just talking to when I, when we were on set.

Tamara Jade: I'm telling y'all. Y'all got to be, y'all got to bring Rebecca here too. Yeah. That's a plug. Um, she works in admissions as well now, too, for Manhattan School of Music. Okay. But, um, she... I, I told her I'd gotten to the point on the theater side where I needed help. So I shouldn't say that I had never had a manager. Mm. I have a brotherger.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: My big brother. He's a graduate of Berklee College of Music.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And so on the, like, uh, commercial music side, he got me into sync music and, um, voiceover and stuff like that. Okay. Uh, but the theatrical side, I said, "You know what? I'm finally to the place now where I think I might be missing money."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Because I can only take on but so much. I can't look at Actors Access every day. I can't do all these things. I need help.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah, you need somebody that's gonna-

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Search for you and-

Tamara Jade: Exactly.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Point out things that you need to-

Tamara Jade: And we are very clear. It'll ne- it w- has to be a Black woman.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And so she said, "Well, I have s-"

Carmen Twillie Ambar: You thought that was important so they could understand your perspective. Why, why did you-

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And also, I didn't need to have to... I don't wanna have to explain certain things, or I need to be able to just talk how I talk.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: And you get it.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Um, you heard me talking to her today. No, absolutely. I w- I was very me.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: No. Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Right? Um, and that's important 'cause I don't have time to, to do the mental gymnastics of catering to you now having to understand and then asking my request. So that was first, and she's like, "I think, I think I have somebody." Yeah. And she had been... They were talking before another manager. Uh, she'd signed with another manager, but she was gonna sign with her.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: And so she was like, "I think you should take this meeting." Um, I had met with an agent in 2023, and I asked him, I said, "So how are you and your clients dealing with this current climate with the strike?" He said, "We're already rich."

Carmen Twillie Ambar: That was his response?

Tamara Jade: That was his response. "We're already rich." And so I said, "Okay, well maybe I don't need one of y'all because I'm not that." Uh, so it's taken me a while to really, like, settle in with somebody and sign with somebody. Yeah. And since then, it has lifted that weight of I don't have to, uh, scroll through Actors Access. And very quickly, the casting directors, once they see you once, they're like, "Oh, well she'd be good for this," so then they start-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: Reaching out. Right. So.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: It's like headhunters in our industry, right?

Tamara Jade: Yes, exactly.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Like, once you're in that group, they at least have you on their Rolodex, and when things come through, they will also see you too.

Tamara Jade: Exactly.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Excellent. So, um, I know Jay has a question about coming back from, uh, coming back to, as a student at Oberlin. I think this is a, a great question to end on, so. Okay. I know we have a couple of minutes here, but we'll let you ask your question.

Student 4: Um, thank you so much for coming. I like that you mentioned earlier in the podcast that you wish you had a you-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Student 4: Uh, when you were in college. And my question for you is if you're to come back to Oberlin all over again and go through the process, um, how would, um, how would you, like, kind of educate yourself-

Tamara Jade: Mm-hmm.

Student 4: On the industry and, like, kind of prepare yourself for the challenges that come with being in the industry?

Tamara Jade: Hmm. Well, first things first, I'd go to The Feve and get some tots. First thing first. And a $4 cocktail.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah. Um.

Tamara Jade: Go get some tater tots and a cocktail. Yeah. Okay. And put on my thinking cap. Um, I think I would delve deeper into social media. I was doing it just because that was the only place I had as an outlet back then, but, like, Facebook started, like, my senior year of high school. So everything was very new. Okay. So with it being not new now, oh, man, I would be... I, three, four times a day, posting on all platforms. And that is not me telling you to do that, okay? You asking me what I would do.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: I would find things, uh, that I wanted to do after this, and start barreling down on content related to that, whether it be, um... I was, I did a research program when I was here. Research, re- Oberlin College Research Fellows-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Is what it was called. And I studied, uh, Black women in classical music. And so if I were to do that now, I would also be doing videos on it too. Interesting.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So you would take your academic coursework, the things you're doing-

Tamara Jade: Yes.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Um, those deep and rich experiences that you got here at Oberlin, but you'd also be putting that on your platform-

Tamara Jade: Absolutely.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And building your brand at the same time.

Tamara Jade: Absolutely. I would be performing as much as I could. There's probably three times the performance spaces here now.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Like I said, it was just The Cat in the Cream.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Yeah.

Tamara Jade: Which I sa- I mean, I sang there, and the 'Sco.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: And 'Sco. That's right, yep.

Tamara Jade: I sang at the 'Sco a lot. Um, I probably would also learn how to DJ. I would-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Interesting.

Tamara Jade: Yes, I would. I would learn something that did not require other personnel.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Interesting. And I think- So you could have an income stream that you can go and do that didn't require other people.

Tamara Jade: Yeah, like hosting is my thing that I do-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Okay.

Tamara Jade: That does, that, that doesn't require anybody else. It requires the third-grade skill of reading in public. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and a little bit of banter. But, like, DJ-ing I think would be a really great way to fuse the music. And you can be the DJ at the classical function, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's right. At The Met. Yeah, that's right. When they have events, because you know what they would and wouldn't wanna hear, and the way you... You know, you could be the person that's like, "Jazz, you, you always got some jazz in your sets." Yeah. And you're mixing jazz with the unce, unce. And everybody loves it, right? Like, I would do that. I would focus a little bit more on, um, a career that did not require other people's help-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Right.

Tamara Jade: While I was-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So you could combine that.

Tamara Jade: Yeah. Yeah, and it wouldn't... Not to say that I would want to be a DJ. It would be, like, something I would be slowly learning on the side. Yeah. I'd be in Cleveland once a month at out- whatever club did what I wanted. But, like, yeah.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Still doing your work here as well, but-

Tamara Jade: Yeah, never, that's never an option. Like, first of all, you can't even... I don't know if you can get a C here anymore. Yeah. You c- you... I could- we couldn't get a C here. Yeah. When we... That was failing. You had to retake the class.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: So I, I know we only have 30... Thank you, Jay, so much. Yeah.

Tamara Jade: I know everything still. I know, I-

Carmen Twillie Ambar: I know we only have 30 seconds left. I just want us to thank Tamara for being here. What a great experience this was for me, and hopefully for our students. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Tamara Jade: Thanks for having me.

Carmen Twillie Ambar: Thanks for listening to Running to the Noise, a podcast produced by Oberlin College and Conservatory. Our music is composed by professor of jazz guitar, Bobby Ferrazza, and performed by the Oberlin Sonny Rollins Jazz Ensemble, a student group created through the support of the legendary jazz musician. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to hit that subscribe button, leave us a review, and share this episode online so Obies and other folks can find us too.

I'm Carmen Twillie Ambar, and I'll be back soon with more great conversations from thought leaders on and off our campus.